PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Motorway variable speed limits
Tsst
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:10
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,839



Hi,



Last night I was traveling on M25 and the gantry I was heading to was displaying a restricted speed limit of 50 mph. The next gantry displayed 40 mph. However the following 2 gantries were blank ( no speed restriction limit displayed ) and the 3rd gantry following that displayed the "National Speed Limit" sign.



If there is no speed restriction displayed on a particular gantry following a gantry which displays a speed restriction does it mean that there is no restriction anymore ( which is 70 MPH )? As I understand there should be a derestriction sign displayed specifically to inform the motorists that the speed limit restriction has ended but this does not always seem to be the case.



I have drawn a diagram to better explain the query that I have. When passing under gantries 3 and 4 what should the speed limit be?





GANTRY 1: 50 MPH displayed -----> GANTRY 2: 40 MPH displayed ------> GANTRY 3: BLANK ------> GANTRY 4: BLANK -----> GANTRY 5: NATIONAL SPEED LIMIT displayed



Regards
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
5 Pages V  « < 3 4 5  
Start new topic
Replies (80 - 89)
Advertisement
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:10
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
DancingDad
post Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 21:18
Post #81


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,953
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 22:04) *


Wake up at the back biggrin.gif
We've been around this already.
It is a memorandum and an interpretation that any blank sign means NSL is at odds with the legislation.
Given that it is explaining how the system will work, an alternative is that if no signs are showing speed limits in a VSL, normal NSL applies, ie, until you get to a lit sign after entry, not what applies after signs are lit.


QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 22:10) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 22:04) *

DD accepts the explanatory guidance from the government says no speed displayed = NSL but thinks that as his interpretation of the legislation doesn't match with 7.3 then 7.3 is wrong.


Not quite.
I simply see clear wording in the legislation that does not support 7.3 being interpreted the way you are interpreting it.


Ah, just realised something.
When NML and myself are talking about differing regulation numbers, we are actually talking about the same thing, just that NML is referring to the M25 regs he posted earlier and I am referring to M6 regs that pertain to the memorandum NML linked to. Relevant words are the same in both, just reg numbers different.
Apologies for confusion.


This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 21:25
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 22:06
Post #82


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,257
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



In relation to the M6 regulations the prohibition is created by Reg 3(1): No person shall drive a vehicle on a section of a road which is subject to a variable speed limit at a speed exceeding that indicated by a speed limit sign.

When a road is subject to a speed limit is determined by Reg 3(2):

A section of a road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven along it if—

(a) the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b) the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
© the vehicle has not subsequently passed—
(i) another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii) a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force.


To understand this sub-paragraph one has to have regard to Reg 3(5):

In this regulation—

“national speed limit” has the meaning given by Schedule 1 to the 2016 Regulations and Directions and a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force means a traffic sign of the type shown in diagram 671 in Part 2 of Schedule 10 to the 2016 Regulations and Directions which is—
(a) placed on or near a road; and
(b) directed at traffic on the carriageway on which the vehicle is being driven;

...

“speed limit sign” in relation to a vehicle, means a traffic sign of the type shown in diagram 670 in Part 2 of Schedule 10 to the 2016 Regulations and Directions which is—
(a) situated on or near any part of a road specified in paragraph 1 of the Schedule; and
(b) directed at traffic on the carriageway on which the vehicle is being driven.


So far as I am aware a blank gantry is neither a sign conforming to diagram 670 nor 671. So, for the purposes of the Regulations there is an argument that it doesn’t convey a speed limit or the national speed limit. Further, it can be argued that it cannot be said to convey anything within Reg 3(2)© - a speed limit or the national speed limit. So arguably the vehicle has not passed a subsequent sign etc and the previous limit applies.

How regulation 3(4) interacts with this, or is intended to interact with this (which may not be the same thing), is a different matter. It says: For the purposes of this regulation a speed limit sign is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit if, ten seconds before the vehicle passed it, the sign had indicated no speed limit or that the national speed limit was in force.

Now, this could mean that a blank gantry means no speed limit therefore the NSL applies (but it does say no speed limit, not NSL - why not?). Or, it could mean that it is to be ignored because it doesn’t convey a speed limit (including the NSL) and as such can’t be a sign described in Reg 3(2).

As to using the Explanatory Note, that probably would not be allowed in court per Westminster City Council v National Asylum Support Service: “The aims of the Government in respect of the meaning of clauses as revealed in Explanatory Notes cannot be attributed to Parliament. The object is to see what is the intention expressed by the words enacted.” Using the Note in that way would be governed by the Pepper v Hart rules.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 22:08


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Yesterday, 08:37
Post #83


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,953
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Thanks SP a clear analysis and one I agree with.

Re 3(4)
While I agree that the wording is clunky but as it starts "in this regulation" ie Regulation 3, it has to be read as a whole with all other parts.
Not taken in isolation.
If read with 3(3) IMO it becomes clearer, that the two subsections seek to clarify what speed limit applies in any of the three possible sign states and if the limit changes as a vehicle closely approaches or passes a sign during a changeover.
To me, that the wording, in specifically identifying no speed limit (blank) and NSL, seeks to separate them, not conjoin them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Yesterday, 09:53
Post #84


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,165
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Interesting, thank you. However I am not sure I agree.

It is fairly clear that VSL signs do not conform to 670/671.

Therefore a strict reading of that definition of speed limit signs would mean that none of the signs applied.

So if you look at part 2 schedule 15 & 16 they refer to variable message signs. The definition of a variable message sign is previously given as

QUOTE
a device which complies with the requirements of Part 1 of Schedule 16 and is capable of displaying, at different times, two or more of the following—

(a) a sign provided for in Schedule 2 to 13 or 15;
(b) a legend provided for in Schedule 16; and
© a blank grey or a blank black face.


So VSL signs are permitted to display a variant of 670/671, and also display a blank face. It is a positive "display" rather than no display.

Then you go back again to (4) which refers to a sign "indicating no speed limit". If we are to accept that display and indicate are broadly interchangeable on an electronic sign then the only way within programming a sign can display no indicate limit is to be blank.

So again I think that TSRGD recognises that electronic signs are different to "permanent" signs, and that drivers can assume that a sign conforming to © is still displaying a message.

Otherwise you get into the situation of why both blank and NSL signs would have been put in the same clause if they actually had polar opposite meanings, and also why no provision was made for a limit to ever "time out" bearing in mind no electronic sign or gantry of signs will be working 100% of the time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Yesterday, 10:35
Post #85


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,890
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Blank and NSL do not have polar opposite meanings.....


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Yesterday, 13:46
Post #86


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,165
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



They do if you believe that blank = unchanged variable limit and NSL = end of variable limit.

However, if you conclude that both mean NSL, as the explanatory memorandum says, then including them both in the same clause is sensible as they have equivalent meanings.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
big_mac
post Yesterday, 14:12
Post #87


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 465
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Member No.: 32,760



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 14:46) *
They do if you believe that blank = unchanged variable limit and NSL = end of variable limit.

However, if you conclude that both mean NSL, as the explanatory memorandum says, then including them both in the same clause is sensible as they have equivalent meanings.

It's also possible that they didn't imagine a sign would be unnecessarily blank when there was actually a variable limit in place.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Yesterday, 14:40
Post #88


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,165
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



QUOTE (big_mac @ Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 15:12) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 14:46) *
They do if you believe that blank = unchanged variable limit and NSL = end of variable limit.

However, if you conclude that both mean NSL, as the explanatory memorandum says, then including them both in the same clause is sensible as they have equivalent meanings.

It's also possible that they didn't imagine a sign would be unnecessarily blank when there was actually a variable limit in place.

Except if you read the consultations about these limits that is usually the first question the police ask, what happens in the event of a power outage. The response by the DfT was

QUOTE
MM ALR does not require a specific contingency plan for a power outage. If signs and signals fail due to a power outage, drivers can continue to use it as normal. It is anticipated that in a controlled environment, with enforcement cameras present, the risk of accidents will reduce. The risk of an incident requiring signals, occurring at the same time as a catastrophic power outage, is statistically low.


So again you can interpret "use it as normal" to either mean the blank signs can be taken as meaning the variable limit is lifted, or that they have to continue at the previous speed indefinitely until power is restored.

I know which one sounds more normal to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Yesterday, 15:42
Post #89


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,257
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



Well, until a court makes a ruling (probably without the benefit of the explanatory note, which is likely inadmissible) it’s all rather academic.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Yesterday, 21:34
Post #90


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,953
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 14:46) *
They do if you believe that blank = unchanged variable limit and NSL = end of variable limit.

However, if you conclude that both mean NSL, as the explanatory memorandum says, then including them both in the same clause is sensible as they have equivalent meanings.

Sorry mate but I just don't see the logic of that even within the confines of taking one clause in isolation.
It would have been far simpler for the draftsman to say both blank and NSL mean NSL then the convoluted negative that is used.


TBH, I treat blank gantries that seem obviously the end of the VSL the way you want the law to apply.
But like many other things when driving (and life in general) what is done pragmatically is not always what the law states.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  « < 3 4 5
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 20th July 2018 - 12:44
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.