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Incandescent
Posted on: Yesterday, 22:06


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OP, It's very nice to see someone fighting so hard for their brother, and their mum too. However, whilst I hope you can get some settlement of this matter, I have to say that if it were me, I'd be taking a hammer and chisel to your brother's head to try and knock some sense into it, (metaphorically, of course !!). You're now on a 2nd PCN with bailiffs at the door, and who knows how many more on the way. Whilst we can advise on the legal processes and point out council errors and unlawful acts, we can't sort out problems like this. Would that we could !!

There may well be special arrangements where bailiffs are dealing with people with mental health issues, but I don't know what they might be, hopefully somebody will know on here. If not, you may care to contact: -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

They are normally very helpful, and for a small fee will assist you with preparing court documents, as you're at the stage when these may be necessary. Unfortunately those running the civil law processes will be thinking that if a person can drive a car (e.e. pass a driving test), he/she is knowledgeable about road signs and markings.

BTW, you still haven't told us who is the registered keeper of the car.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435790 · Replies: 19 · Views: 390

Incandescent
Posted on: Yesterday, 21:53


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:38) *
Head over to https://londontribunals.org.uk and have a read of Elizabeth Kehinde v Royal Borough of Greenwich (case reference 2180261257), it was held that a significant delay (99 days) in dealing with informal representations could amount to a procedural impropriety. In your case it's an 136 day delay so you have an even stronger case.

Also, do you have photos showing the missing signs at the zone boundary? And have the council emailed you a copy of their rejection? In any event post a copy of your first representations. As the NtO is for the full amount you might as well challenge, there's no point in paying the £70 now.

+1
Do not pay this one ! First you must submit reps against the NtO, as informal reps made against a PCN do not count. Just put in what you put in before, noting in your text the very heavy delay in sending the NtO. They will no doubt bat it away, but then you register an appeal at TPT. It is a no-brainer to take them all the way, because the discount option is now lost.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435785 · Replies: 2 · Views: 41

Incandescent
Posted on: Yesterday, 18:20


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QUOTE (tim123457 @ Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 18:06) *
Thanks for the reply stamfordman. I will check for the original PCN, but I am pretty sure it has been thrown away.

It looks like I will just have to have to pay.

I think the least they could do is put "emergency vehicles only" on the central part as the only people who suffer are wagon drivers trying to shortcut down the road (which is the intended target) and confused drivers..

Thanks for the opinions all.

They have 100% discretion when deciding to issue a PCN. You do wonder why they issue PCNs to cars and bikes when the restriction is to stop large vehicles, (vans, HGVs etc) from proceeding down the road. The answer is it is all about generating cash, cash, cash.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435706 · Replies: 8 · Views: 196

Incandescent
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:11


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It sounds from what you say it would seem that you have received a "parking charge notice", not a "penalty charge notice". You parked in a private car park so your thread needs moving to the Private Tickets forum. The law on private, (i.e. non-council), parking is completely different to that for councils who operate "Civil Parking Enforcement"

Please confirm what you have received or post it up here.
  Forum: Private Parking Tickets & Clamping · Post Preview: #1435531 · Replies: 3 · Views: 101

Incandescent
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 22:33


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It doesn't look good, I'm afraid. If yours is the red car, then photos show you straddling two bays, yet there is room behind you, so you could have parked wholly within the bay but didn't, why ? The sign clearly says, inter alia, "park within marked bays at all times", although the print is rather small, it could have been much larger and still fitted into the space on the sign. However this won't get you off the PCN, I'm afraid.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435457 · Replies: 5 · Views: 89

Incandescent
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 21:41


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Well, Havering may be a bit thick, stupid and dozy when it comes to their IT systems, but you, as a motorist, really should be up-to-speed on restricted bus stops. Frankly, as 'stamfordman' says, you'll have to put this one down to experience, to which I would add "in Life's Rich Pageant". The discount beckons, I think.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435441 · Replies: 19 · Views: 220

Incandescent
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 21:29


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Unfortunately bailiffs tend to be very pro-active in these matters, as being so gets the business in.

If the TEC officer turns down the OOT, you have the right to have the papers reviewed by a County Court judge. However this is where it costs money - £100 I can't see a judge agreeing with a refusal of the OOT in your circumstances.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435436 · Replies: 24 · Views: 417

Incandescent
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 21:21


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Well, the discount has gone, so no point in coughing-up now until an adjudicator tells you to. Your reps to the NtO will be essentially that the dropped kerb is not provided for the statutory reasons as outlined in "the Act", (others here can quote the exact clause). When/if they reject, you register an appeal at London Tribunals. The plain fact is the law is against them on this. Having said that, a policeman could issue a Fixed Penalty Notice for obstruction if the bin men complain, and your car is once again there.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435430 · Replies: 16 · Views: 393

Incandescent
Posted on: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 20:25


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Please post up the original PCN and your informal reps, and their response, (letter and e-mail). The document you seem to have missed is the Notice to Owner, is this you ? Also is the address on the V5 registration document the same as the one used for the reps. NtOs are always sent to the registered keeper as per the V5
At the CC stage you cannot appeal. Now you must wait for the Order for Recovery at which point you will be able to submit a Witness Statement that you did not receive the Notice to Owner. The matter is then reverted to the NtO stage. You'll have lost the discount at this point so appeal all the way to adjudication. You'll need to chase up the council after the CC payment period is finished as to when they will be issuing the OfR.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435417 · Replies: 1 · Views: 35

Incandescent
Posted on: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 20:05


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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:54) *
The poor signage has been argued before at this location and won

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://forums....jIXrRPRqW9Cn7Nw

I note that this case also mentioned the "in the clouds" final warning sign. But of course, Sheffield CC continue to draw the cash, there being nothing at all to force them to take action.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435150 · Replies: 12 · Views: 123

Incandescent
Posted on: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:47


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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 16:04) *
As Incand would say this is a venal money grubbing PCN. Offside wheel about on line of box and if you'd pulled up nearer to the Mini you would have been pretty much out.

I'd be tempted to put this in front of the adjudicator but not my money.


"as Incand would say"
Indeed, and I do say ! Actually it is venal and rapacious money-grubbing with no traffic management purpose whatsoever !! I would take them to London Tribunals on this one, but obviously it's not my money.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435143 · Replies: 10 · Views: 133

Incandescent
Posted on: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 18:46


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As you've received the NtO, the discount option has gone, so it is important you take them all the way to London Tribunals if necessary as they really are a load of venal and rapacious charlatans. Everywhere you go councils want you to use PbP, (the only option in Barnet), yet when there are problems they behave disgracefully, as here. There is no difference here to ticket machines being all out-of-order.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435121 · Replies: 22 · Views: 456

Incandescent
Posted on: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 09:27


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 05:16) *
If there are no regulatory sign where the restrictions begin, there are no restrictions. Advance warning signs alone do not create a restriction.

However there appear to be bus only signs here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4033392,-...w!2e0?hl=en so I'm not sure why Incandescent thinks they're missing?

I have to say I disagree. That sign is before the right hand turn for 'other traffic' so is a warning sign, (the 2nd of two). There should be two of the blue "bus only" signs just after the right turn. There are actually two "escape" roads along here. The sign where you indicate is also the one that is ridiculously high, higher than the roof of the bus shown going in the other direction. Whether this grossly overheight sign would win at adjudication is another matter. Some adjudicators can be very obtuse in my view. The test should be that of signs as presented to a complete stranger, the locals know all about it as this gate has been there since the mid-nineties, shortly after the tramway opened. It was put there to speed up the tram traffic as the first day of opening was complete chaos.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1435021 · Replies: 12 · Views: 123

Incandescent
Posted on: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:59


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There are two aspects to this, (1) vague locus as pointed out by 'Stamfordman' and (2) signage. Whilst it can be possible to get an adjudicator to agree signs are missing or inadequate, or the location is too vague on the PCN, and succeed with an appeal, that is the rub. The council will never agree with either of these points, so you end up at the Trafic Penalty Tribunal with the full £60 in play. It is a double-or-quits gamble, basically.

From what you say, the required signs are in place as shown on GSV, and whilst that is 2017, I doubt the signs are now missing in 2018, but if you want to claim they aren't there, you'd have to prove it. Coughing-up the £30 might be your best option.

First sign as you approach the bus gate (there is one also some distance back too).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4039743,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

Second sign as you approach the bus gate. Note how extremely high up it is, it is really quite ridiculously high.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4031547,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

The "other traffic" sign
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4033392,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

I think one might have a good appeal argument based on the ridiculous height of the final sign. Why place it so high, it could be easily missed in this very busy street. Also there are no signs at the actual start of the bus gate itself. Surely there should be two, one each side.

Now of course the locals know all about this bus gate, but I would say the signs are inadequate to inform strangers. HOwever whether you want to risk the full £60 or have the certainty of the £30 is up to you. Personally, I'd take them to TPT on this one, they've been making money rather too easily here.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434984 · Replies: 12 · Views: 123

Incandescent
Posted on: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:24


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Much more information needed, like - what did your brother actually receive, a PCN ? Is he the registered keeper as per the V5C for the vehicle? Where does he live, is it the same as mother's house ? Was the V5C correct on the date of the contravention ? Have any house moves taken place, but V5C was not updated ?

Do be aware that it's now going to be mega-diffcult to get that money back, and you would inevitably have to pay out more money to a County Court judge. This is because you would have to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration, (which one depends on what the fine/penalty was issued for).

So please tell us all about the original fine. After your first, informal, reps were rejected, you should have received: -

1. Notice to Owner
2. Charge Certificate
3. Order for Recovery

all before bailiffs can be instructed. So three items of mail have gone astray. Commonest reason is failure to update the V5C for the vehicle.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434980 · Replies: 19 · Views: 390

Incandescent
Posted on: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 21:11


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OK, 14 months and no prejudice so what period would be unreasonable, 10 years ? Death of the appellant maybe ? Somebody here deserves a severe kicking and probably dismissal from the TPT, no ifs or buts. No apology has even been issued, it has merely been indicated as "deserved".
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434978 · Replies: 20 · Views: 273

Incandescent
Posted on: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 11:39


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The adjudicator says the parties are owed an apology, but I see no actual apology. If it were me, I'd be rattling the bars of the TPT cage on this matter, and indeed, be taking the matter up with the Ministry of Justice. Justice delayed is justice denied.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434842 · Replies: 20 · Views: 273

Incandescent
Posted on: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 11:30


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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 10:40) *
Post all sides of the PCN, and all the documents i.e. appeal, NTO...
Your wife, as the RK, is responsible for the PCN.

+1
Blank out the PCN Number and car details. Leave everything else in.

Under the Civil Parking Enforcement regime, the registered keeper has sole responsibility for payment or appeal of a PCN. At the top of the PCN you'll see the relevant Act, the Traffic Management Act 2004. Informal reps as you have submitted can be considered, but if the reps are declined and payment is not made, the Notice to Owner is issued, and the keeper of the vehicle must pay or submit formal reps. If these are declined the keeper can register an appeal with the adjudicators, and can authorise a person to act on the keeper's behalf.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434836 · Replies: 20 · Views: 212

Incandescent
Posted on: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:49


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When was the auto-pay account set up ? Any crossings made before the date of setting it up are not paid by it.

As requested by PMB, please post the documents. DART are normally reasonable especially as you have an account.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434790 · Replies: 6 · Views: 124

Incandescent
Posted on: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:46


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QUOTE (stonesy @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 13:51) *
The bailiff are asking for £430 which will rise if a visit is carried out

OK, so potentially £430 + £100, or if the OOT is successful, £130 (bus lane in London, or £65 in England), plus £100. Submitting an OOT is free, but can be, and invariably will be opposed by the council when they read your OOT statement, hence the £100 CC judge fee. However it will get the bailiffs off your back for a bit, so you'll be able to get your breath back, and prepare.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434692 · Replies: 6 · Views: 90

Incandescent
Posted on: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 13:28


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Based on what you have told us so far, you're going to have a struggle getting an OOT accepted, and would, in all likelihood, have to have the papers reviewed by a County Court judge, because the council are highly likely to oppose your OOT. How much does the bailiff want ? Reason to ask is that a CC judge review costs £100, and is not guaranteed to be successful, and the money is not reimbursable even if you succeed.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434661 · Replies: 6 · Views: 90

Incandescent
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 12:13


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Not much to say, really. The fact you've paid-up makes getting it back rather difficult, (I would say mega-difficult). The only avenue now open to you is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration stating the original PCN was not received due to this very small error on the V5C. Whilst this is free to submit, the council can and will oppose it and then it gets rejected. At this point you can pay for a County Court judge to review the decision. This costs £100 and this money is not reimbursible. However, I would think a CC judge would look on the matter favourably, but you'll only find out if you pay the £100.

If the judge agrees the OOT SD, the matter reverts back and you remain liable for the original PCN penalty, but would be able to appeal it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1434003 · Replies: 13 · Views: 211

Incandescent
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 12:01


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QUOTE (acl @ Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 11:18) *
Your reply focuses on proving that I was loading legitimately - can I infer from that that you think the delay in issuing the notice is not a ground for appeal?

The first PCN would have gone to the lease company if it is they who have the V5C. They then submit reps that they are a hire company and supply your name and address, at which point the first PCN is cancelled and a second one issued to you. So it does look as if it is all kosher. However your grounds of loading should be suffiient to get the PCN cancelled, but you may have to go to London Tribunals to get this result, as councils are so greedy for the cash they just bat off even solid grounds, knowing there are no penalties on them for doing so.

It's called "gaming the system", and to their advantage, of course, as most people cough up as they don't want to risk the full penalty
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1433998 · Replies: 8 · Views: 194

Incandescent
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 11:56


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Now, now, gents, no need to get crotchety ! Good thing is the OP did actually get the OfR, so will now easily be able to revert the process.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1433997 · Replies: 7 · Views: 84

Incandescent
Posted on: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 09:23


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But did you appeal to the TPT or to the council that issued the PCN ? The two are completely separate. I can understand a council being totally dozy, but not the TPT. As said above, we need much more information than you have provided so far.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1433956 · Replies: 20 · Views: 273

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