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Help! Stopped by unmarked police car. No lights. Contradiction help, I was pulled by plain clothed officers in an unmarked car
Bungle87
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 12:33
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Hi all.
Hopefully you can help. Back on July 15th I was asked to pull over by a grey Vauxhall Astra being driven by two plain clothed officers. No lights were used to pull me. On pulling over where they asked me, I produced my license to the officer. He said I was driving to fast in a 30 mph. This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit. So it started with me coming off a set off green lights and turning onto this said road. There was a silver fiat punto as I turned left doing around 15/20mph whom decided to slam on his brakes as I approached. So I check the road was clear and over took and accelerated up to the end where there is a roundabout where it states a 30mph. So I naturally was doing 30mph by this point. Around 2 miles later the Astra pulled along side me and flashed a badge and asked me to pull into a junction. He said to me at the side of the road that he was doing it ver 60mph to try and catch me. He must’ve been at the light guys on the opposite side to me when I first pulled onto the above road. He proceeded today that he can’t do me for speeding as he doesn’t know what speed I was doing. But instead is giving me a ticket for driving with undue care and attention. Towards the end of September I received a ‘single justice procedure’ letter and the offence says ‘speeding-exceed 30mph on restricted road-manned equipment. I don’t actually know what the full charge is and why I was told something different at the side of the road. I’ve got both witness statements from the driver and his colleague. It also says if found guilty the prosecutor will apply for costs of at least £85.
Can someone please give me some help and advice?
Many thanks

This post has been edited by Bungle87: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 12:35
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post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 12:33
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AntonyMMM
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 12:47
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What speed does the statement say you were doing, and how was the speed measured (presumably by following you and looking at their own speedo) ?

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Bungle87
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:01
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No speed stated. He said at the side of the road that he can’t ticket me for speeding as he didn’t know what speed I was doing. But in his statement he says that he reported me for the offence of speeding and careless driving which he did not say! He said he was doing me for careless driving. In their reports they mention their speed in an attempt to catch up to me and that they calibrated their Speedo’s couple hours later
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Jlc
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:26
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QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
He said I was driving to fast in a 30 mph. This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit.

It's likely that the limit was denoted by a system of streetlighting? (This makes it a restricted road of 30mph for which no speed signs are necessary within the limit - the charge says so too)

QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
...that he can’t do me for speeding as he doesn’t know what speed I was doing. But instead is giving me a ticket for driving with undue care and attention. Towards the end of September I received a ‘single justice procedure’ letter and the offence says ‘speeding-exceed 30mph on restricted road-manned equipment.

The allegation is exceeding the prescribed limit. They only have to show the limit was exceeded and this can be done by their own speedo's put in context.

What exactly were you given? A Traffic Offence Report (TOR) I suspect - for which the ticket offence decide how the progress the matter, e.g. course, fixed penalty or court.

QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
I don’t actually know what the full charge is and why I was told something different at the side of the road. I’ve got both witness statements from the driver and his colleague. It also says if found guilty the prosecutor will apply for costs of at least £85.

The £85 is for a guilty plea. A not guilty plea would likely see a request for over £600 if you are found guilty after a trial. (On top of any fines and the surcharge which is minimum of £30).

QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:01) *
No speed stated. He said at the side of the road that he can’t ticket me for speeding as he didn’t know what speed I was doing. But in his statement he says that he reported me for the offence of speeding and careless driving which he did not say! He said he was doing me for careless driving. In their reports they mention their speed in an attempt to catch up to me and that they calibrated their Speedo’s couple hours later

As above, the exact speed isn't needed to convict but the excess is used for sentencing. 60mph was their speed it seems, but an 'agreement' as to your speed needs to be established for the sentencing. (60mph is quite serious indeed which is in the top band of the new sentencing guidelines publicised earlier this year)

Speeding appears to be the correct offence to pursue and it seems your were made of aware of exceeding the limit and that a prosecution may ensue (a 'verbal' NIP). I think you'll struggle to drop the charge on the basis that careless was the expected outcome.

If you were speeding then it may be pragmatic to plead guilty and admit to a sensible excess. The matter may well have to go to court for a 'Newton Hearing' to establish the facts around the excess.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:28


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:39
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QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit.


So in your view, what is the limit for a "massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit"?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:39


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Bungle87
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:39
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So the offence/charge I must enter a plea is speeding-exceeding 30 mph on restricted road - manned equipment. Shall I admit guilt. And take it from there? There is also an option to add any information that may help decrease any punishment. Cani request a driving reduction course. But I still don’t see what speed they are saying I’m getting prosecuted for or is it just the fact they believe I was in excess of 30mph?
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peterguk
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:40
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QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:39) *
Cani request a driving reduction course.


No. A court can't award a SAC.


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fedup2
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:45
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:39) *
QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit.


So in your view, what is the limit for a "massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit"?



If you dont want to help the op,dont!


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superSmiffy
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:48
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:26) *
QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
He said I was driving to fast in a 30 mph. This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit.

It's likely that the limit was denoted by a system of streetlighting? (This makes it a restricted road of 30mph for which no speed signs are necessary within the limit - the charge says so too)

QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
...that he can’t do me for speeding as he doesn’t know what speed I was doing. But instead is giving me a ticket for driving with undue care and attention. Towards the end of September I received a ‘single justice procedure’ letter and the offence says ‘speeding-exceed 30mph on restricted road-manned equipment.

The allegation is exceeding the prescribed limit. They only have to show the limit was exceeded and this can be done by their own speedo's put in context.

What exactly were you given? A Traffic Offence Report (TOR) I suspect - for which the ticket offence decide how the progress the matter, e.g. course, fixed penalty or court.

QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
I don’t actually know what the full charge is and why I was told something different at the side of the road. I’ve got both witness statements from the driver and his colleague. It also says if found guilty the prosecutor will apply for costs of at least £85.

The £85 is for a guilty plea. A not guilty plea would likely see a request for over £600 if you are found guilty after a trial. (On top of any fines and the surcharge which is minimum of £30).

QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:01) *
No speed stated. He said at the side of the road that he can’t ticket me for speeding as he didn’t know what speed I was doing. But in his statement he says that he reported me for the offence of speeding and careless driving which he did not say! He said he was doing me for careless driving. In their reports they mention their speed in an attempt to catch up to me and that they calibrated their Speedo’s couple hours later

As above, the exact speed isn't needed to convict but the excess is used for sentencing. 60mph was their speed it seems, but an 'agreement' as to your speed needs to be established for the sentencing. (60mph is quite serious indeed which is in the top band of the new sentencing guidelines publicised earlier this year)

Speeding appears to be the correct offence to pursue and it seems your were made of aware of exceeding the limit and that a prosecution may ensue (a 'verbal' NIP). I think you'll struggle to drop the charge on the basis that careless was the expected outcome.

If you were speeding then it may be pragmatic to plead guilty and admit to a sensible excess. The matter may well have to go to court for a 'Newton Hearing' to establish the facts around the excess.

Can you give an NIP for one offence then issue a prosecution for something quite different?
Further to this can you change a “you will not be prosecuted for X but will for Y” into a prosecution for X but not Y?
If you tell someone in a verbal NIP that they will be prosecuted for careless driving then issue a prosecution for speeding it isn’t valid is it?

Unfortunately the police don’t always know all aspects of the law, who does, so saying they couldn’t prosecute for speeding when there was 2 witnesses was wrong. They don’t need a speed reading, just 2 witnesses who think that the limit has been exceeded. The correct charge has been advised on the incident but perhaps issuing a prosecution in writing after the even with no NIP in time isn’t right.
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fedup2
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:51
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QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:39) *
So the offence/charge I must enter a plea is speeding-exceeding 30 mph on restricted road - manned equipment. Shall I admit guilt. And take it from there? There is also an option to add any information that may help decrease any punishment. Cani request a driving reduction course. But I still don’t see what speed they are saying I’m getting prosecuted for or is it just the fact they believe I was in excess of 30mph?



Admit guilt,add nothing and give them their money.Talking usually costs you money,they like it when its easy.

This post has been edited by fedup2: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:52
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peterguk
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:51
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QUOTE (fedup2 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:45) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:39) *
QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit.


So in your view, what is the limit for a "massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit"?



If you dont want to help the op,dont!





Pot, kettle, black etc... rolleyes.gif

I am assisting in getting OP to think for himself. Which, if he is postively minded he will discover the correct way to understand what limit such a road is and why. And if he needs to ask questions, he can do so and will receive the answers he requires.


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Jlc
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:56
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QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:48) *
Can you give an NIP for one offence then issue a prosecution for something quite different?
Further to this can you change a “you will not be prosecuted for X but will for Y” into a prosecution for X but not Y?
If you tell someone in a verbal NIP that they will be prosecuted for careless driving then issue a prosecution for speeding it isn’t valid is it?

Unfortunately the police don’t always know all aspects of the law, who does, so saying they couldn’t prosecute for speeding when there was 2 witnesses was wrong. They don’t need a speed reading, just 2 witnesses who think that the limit has been exceeded. The correct charge has been advised on the incident but perhaps issuing a prosecution in writing after the even with no NIP in time isn’t right.

<snip large requote>

It appears the officer did reference speeding at the time - there are a few gaps in the story for the OP to advise still. The nature of the offence seemed clear.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Bungle87
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:00
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I can see where you’re coming from with the question of speed limit. I was just actually suprised to find out it was a 30mph. Just wondering what to do now. Admit guilt to exceeding 30mph. But what is the manned equipment part?
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fedup2
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:03
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:51) *
QUOTE (fedup2 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:45) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:39) *
QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 13:33) *
This 30 mph road is a massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit.


So in your view, what is the limit for a "massive empty road with unused junctions no houses, buildings and no displayed speed limit"?



If you dont want to help the op,dont!





Pot, kettle, black etc... rolleyes.gif

I am assisting in getting OP to think for himself. Which, if he is postively minded he will discover the correct way to understand what limit such a road is and why. And if he needs to ask questions, he can do so and will receive the answers he requires.


We both knew what you were doing and we both knew what the op meant.So i can assist YOU in thinking for yourself ill spell it out anyway, the speed limit at the time of the pull was unnecessary low as are many, but we know...The law is the law right?

This post has been edited by fedup2: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:05
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superSmiffy
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:09
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:56) *
QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:48) *
Can you give an NIP for one offence then issue a prosecution for something quite different?
Further to this can you change a “you will not be prosecuted for X but will for Y” into a prosecution for X but not Y?
If you tell someone in a verbal NIP that they will be prosecuted for careless driving then issue a prosecution for speeding it isn’t valid is it?

Unfortunately the police don’t always know all aspects of the law, who does, so saying they couldn’t prosecute for speeding when there was 2 witnesses was wrong. They don’t need a speed reading, just 2 witnesses who think that the limit has been exceeded. The correct charge has been advised on the incident but perhaps issuing a prosecution in writing after the even with no NIP in time isn’t right.

<snip large requote>

It appears the officer did reference speeding at the time - there are a few gaps in the story for the OP to advise still. The nature of the offence seemed clear.

I agree he did, but said that offence will not be prosecuted. Unless that has been rectified in writing inside 14 days how can it now be a warning to prosecute for speeding?
Maybe someone could clear this point up.
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Jlc
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:21
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QUOTE (Bungle87 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 15:00) *
But what is the manned equipment part?

Not an automated device (e.g. Gatso) - basically their speedo.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:28
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QUOTE (fedup2 @ Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 15:03) *
The law is the law right?


Only where SAC, points and fines are concerned.


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The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 01:16
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Perhaps if you can give us a google maps link we can see how the limit is signed?


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Logician
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 11:12
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It seems likely that these officers were not traffic officers so the procedures were not as normal, but a NIP does not have to specify the exact offences alleged and it was clear what behaviour was concerned, so that is adequate I think. I doubt whether anything can be made of the officer's comment that speeding would not be charged, I doubt that the officers would remember it that way or have put it on their statements.

Provided it is established that the road was subject to a 30mph limit, properly signed, I would suggest that the OP pleads guilty to exceeding the limit, but in the mitigation section points out that the court simply has no information before it about the speed of his car. That the officers caught him up by driving at 60 mph, as they say, must mean that he was driving at less than 60 mph or they would not have caught him. On the information before the court it would be unsafe to conclude what speed he was doing other than that it was in excess of 30mph, which he has admitted, and less than 60mph, so the doubt should be resolved in his favour and he should therefore be sentenced assuming the lowest band given in the guidelines.


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Jlc
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 11:26
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The bands being 31-40, 41-50 and 51+


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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