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[NIP Wizard] multiple offences, same place, to outdated v5 addres
kbo
post Sun, 16 Jul 2017 - 23:18
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2017
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A338 Wessex way, dean park bournemouth
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penality : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year
I immediately called central ticket office, to find out, there were 4 more offences , with nip serverd to old address, 4 of them happened in the same place (Wessex way).
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:18:48 +0000
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post Sun, 16 Jul 2017 - 23:18
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thisisntme
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:10
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QUOTE (kbo @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:53) *
I realized, when trying to see what day it was in the calendar, that some NIPS are so OLD, that I can recall what the purpose of the trip was.

Would it be a possible defense not to name myself, since I have a doubt about NIPs in April and May ? (first one in Jannuary).


You risk 6 points for each offence. You can't simply say that you don't recall and then the magistrates say "Ah never mind, try and remind better next time". That simply doesn't happen. The only defence is to state with due diligence that you could not identify the driver. You need a lot more than what you have now.


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Jlc
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:37
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It's reasonable diligence upon the service of the request.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:41
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QUOTE (kbo @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 16:53) *
Would it be a possible defense not to name myself, since I have a doubt about NIPs in April and May ? (first one in Jannuary).


Presumably you are asking if having a doubt about whether or not you were the driver is a defence for failing to name the driver?

You are required by law to name the driver. If you cannot do so, there is a defence if you can persuade the court, on the balance of probabilities, both that you do not know who was driving, and that you could not find out with reasonable diligence (which generally mean showing that you made every reasonable effort to try to find out). You would also be likely to face the issue of not having provided what information you do have within the 28 days. Simply having a doubt will not in itself be a defence.

Not naming yourself as the driver would be a defence to the speeding insofar as they would not be able to prove that you were the driver, but you would be prosecuted for failing to name the driver.


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Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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kbo
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 07:37
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Thanks guys for the help,

My first speed offence, was re-processed through the Statutory declaration. 6 points (failure to identify driver and 880£ fine turned into 3 point and 185£ fine.
However, I requested the photographic evidence from the police prior to the court hearing, unfortunately I did not get it before hand.
At the court, I was dissuaded to go for an non-guilty plea, I was told the small picture from first hearing, which black and white, is the reason for this very obscure daylight photographic evidence.
yesterday I have surprisingly received the photo requested, and I see a night-like taken photo. Since the offence happened by daylight, I am wondering if I should not seek to re-open this case, and plead non guilty on the basis that the machine might have had an issue at the time
if it can not take a proper photo, it might also have wrong speed readings.
In comparison , the other offences photo are cristal clear, and daylight is evident (trees are visible, road recognizable) ...any expert in that field , can I re-open the case ? claim photo shows something wrong with camera ?
I can post the photo if needed
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Jlc
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 07:45
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QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37) *
My first speed offence, was re-processed through the Statutory declaration.

It's not clear what the outcome was? Was the s172 dropped?

QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37) *
...if it can not take a proper photo, it might also have wrong speed readings.

Fanciful I'm afraid. The photo is to identify the vehicle and not the driver - there's no reason to believe any speed measurement was wrong. The photo was sufficient to get your registration.

QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37) *
can I re-open the case ?

If you plead guilty to the offence then you can only appeal the sentence.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kbo
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:18
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1-yes S172 dropped.
2-The camera seems to have a problem taking normal photo, does not put into question its overall reliability ? does it not need to fit specifics law defined standards to be credible ?
3- once you have pleaded guilty you can't not appeal to reverse plea based on new findings ?
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Jlc
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:31
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QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:18) *
1-yes S172 dropped.
2-The camera seems to have a problem taking normal photo, does not put into question its overall reliability ? does it not need to fit specifics law defined standards to be credible ?
3- once you have pleaded guilty you can't not appeal to reverse plea based on new findings ?

The whole basis around the 'plea bargain' is that you accept the speeding charge. Given you may not have had a defence against the s172 charge you have to accept the lower charge. (If you wanted to dispute the speed then they may have not dropped the s172)

The quality of the photo has no bearing on the speed measurement.

After pleading guilty there's no normal process to challenge.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kbo
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:37
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ok, I thought I had a chance for this case , after I read this case


http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/8791...mera_challenge/

no bargain ....they only discussed, my plea ...when I requested to know what would happen to S172 charge, they said it would be dropped (discussing the guilty plea)
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peterguk
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:39
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QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:18) *
does it not need to fit specifics law defined standards to be credible ?
3- once you have pleaded guilty you can't not appeal to reverse plea based on new findings ?


The camera will have Home Office approval and is assumed to be working correctly. It is for you to prove that in your case the speed measuremet was incorrect.

If, from the photographs, your car was identified and speed measured, then AFAIK the camera images are acceptable.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 08:41


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Jlc
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:03
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QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 09:37) *
ok, I thought I had a chance for this case , after I read this case

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/8791...mera_challenge/

no bargain ....they only discussed, my plea ...when I requested to know what would happen to S172 charge, they said it would be dropped (discussing the guilty plea)

That was essentially the 'bargain'. The process is routine but if you didn't want to accept the speeding charge then you would have to defend the s172.

The circumstances in the linked case are quite different. (It is possible they might not have pursued your case had you challenged in the normal cause of events - but is still a long shot and there's still no reason to doubt the speed measurement)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Thu, 31 Aug 2017 - 19:15
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It makes no difference whether there was a 'bargain', or whether the prosecution of their own volition decided to drop the s. 172. What matters is that the OP pled guilty to the speeding offence.


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Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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kbo
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 14:45
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Ok, so with the statutory declaration I got 3 points and 185£ fine. Instead of 6 points and 880£ for failure to name driver.
I still had 4 other "offences", which the police refused to deal with via the FPN.
I received an offer for one of them to attend the Driver awrness course, which I did. I received 2 other court sermons, which the claim you can fill online, and plea
online to save X%.
I did the mistake to do it online, and results: 440£ and 3 points for each.
questions:
Why can police refuse to deal with these multiple offences via FPN wherever possible ? it is less costly. I had 6 points when the decided how to deal with these offences
but since the court appearance for the statutory declaration, it went down to 3 points only .
Complaining to the court that I got twice the fine amount (185£ vs 440£) for the same type of offence, same road, same conditions ...via online vs though physical appearance to the court
do I stand any chance to get the fine reviewed ? or the case re-processed?





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Jlc
post Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 15:01
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There's no 'right' to a fixed penalty and there may be particular reasons not to issue one, e.g. the excess is too much or there is not time to issue one before the statutory limitation. (When the matter is at court then it is too late)

The fines may vary based on various factors - it's possible the cheaper one has taken into consideration a potential fixed penalty offer (the court has guidance for this). The others may have been sentenced at normal or assumed earnings rates.

Depending on what information you supplied then there may be ways to request the level of fine to be reassessed.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 - 15:05


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 03:24
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Your £185 was almost certainly not a fine, it was £100 fine (equivalent to the fixed penalty - which under the circumstances I''d say you were lucky to get) and £85 costs, there should also be the surcharge in there somewhere.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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kbo
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 15:38
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ok, I have received the 4th and last "single justice procedure notice". I have 9 points now. a total of 185+440+440 £ for the last 3 offences (same offence different fines ...the system call this justice")
what are my best options here ? 1-fill in the form, plea via paper guilty, and hope, they will fine me and apply an additional 3 points, but "forget" about disqualify me ?
2- fill in the form, plea guilty but with court appearance, and request exceptional hardship (essentially my wife if pregnant, just had previous miscarriage, and need ability to drive her to hospital at short notice)
In case of 1, if they don't "forget", I will be surmoned to court and have to fill a exceptional hardship anyway.


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666
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 15:51
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QUOTE (kbo @ Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 16:38) *
ok, I have received the 4th and last "single justice procedure notice". I have 9 points now. a total of 185+440+440 £ for the last 3 offences (same offence different fines ...the system call this justice")
what are my best options here ? 1-fill in the form, plea via paper guilty, and hope, they will fine me and apply an additional 3 points, but "forget" about disqualify me ?
2- fill in the form, plea guilty but with court appearance, and request exceptional hardship (essentially my wife if pregnant, just had previous miscarriage, and need ability to drive her to hospital at short notice)
In case of 1, if they don't "forget", I will be surmoned to court and have to fill a exceptional hardship anyway.


Would you prefer consistency, and three £440 fines/

Option 1 - yes, you'll be summonsed.

Option 2 - be ready for the obvious (and difficult) question - what's stopping you using a taxi or an ambulance to go to hospital? In what way is this exceptional?
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AntonyMMM
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 15:52
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They won't give you 12 points and forget that means a 6 month disqualification. Whether you choose option 1 or 2 in your list will make no difference - you will get sent a court date, and an opportunity to make your EH argument.....(which as mentioned above, is pretty weak , you will need more than that).

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 15:54
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kbo
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 16:49
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I read, a plea for exceptional hardship, is likely to be successful if "others" are to be impacted more than yourself. in my case, she is due soon, and she and the baby will be punish more than I do.
An ambulance is not at your disposal, for any alert or worries at short notice, related to my wife or my baby.

For the fines, yes I would be happier with a 440£ for every fine, it kind of give you the impression it is serious ! somehow ! they don't do whatever crosses their mind.
Instead, fines going from a 100% to 230%. PEople got less for murdering people, but only in dictatorship, it is true it is a "deamoncratie"
the lottery and the spoliation they people are trying to get accustomed to, here.




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samthecat
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 17:27
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QUOTE (kbo @ Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 17:49) *
For the fines, yes I would be happier with a 440£ for every fine, it kind of give you the impression it is serious ! somehow ! they don't do whatever crosses their mind.
Instead, fines going from a 100% to 230%. PEople got less for murdering people, but only in dictatorship, it is true it is a "deamoncratie"
the lottery and the spoliation they people are trying to get accustomed to, here.


Erm OK, I think?

Venting on here is one thing, don't go to court with an attitude as it will not do you any favours.

For an EH to succeed you are going to have to put a lot more effort in, as previously asked why can you not use a taxi? If its an emergency then an Ambulance could be used, do you have any friends or family that could help?

Post up your arguments and expect some robust critiquing, better here than court!!!


--------------------
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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kbo
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 17:47
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well, I am not attending court everyday to assess, but why talking about exceptional hardship if ambulances and taxis, are admitted to be suitable alternatives to own transport means ?
Would anyone win an exceptional hardship ?
Any employee, could ultimately use a taxi, train, plane, to continue working
Any family member, even on the verge to death, could wait for a taxi or an ambulance

Ambulance: the last time I called 101, they suggested to head to A&E or wait for an ambulance but this take times, as more urgent cases take priority.
Taxi: my wife does not work and does not speak English, and has been in the uk for 5 months.

I do work, but loosing my license would make a much longer journey, for me to get home and help her. IF and When the baby comes, it would be even harder without a car. IF the baby need to be rushed to hospital or else
Myself, I have been living in this city for 1 year, no friends, no family
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