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[NIP Wizard] multiple offences, same place, to outdated v5 addres
kbo
post Sun, 16 Jul 2017 - 23:18
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2017
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A338 Wessex way, dean park bournemouth
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penality : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year
I immediately called central ticket office, to find out, there were 4 more offences , with nip serverd to old address, 4 of them happened in the same place (Wessex way).
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:18:48 +0000
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post Sun, 16 Jul 2017 - 23:18
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Jlc
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 08:44
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A not guilty plea opens the defendant up to the full prosecution costs. The listed CPS cost for a contested trial is £620.

For most cases they may not claim that full amount but it's possible to go much higher should expert witnesses by required - possibly well over £1k or more.

Whilst the prosecution may mess it up or have issues it's a risky strategy on the whole.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 08:57
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
Pleading non guilty, with the hope to find lack of evidences about the speed offences, some might be dropped, is the police absolutely certain and infallible (sorry if not the correct work, just trying my best here). The first offense cost me 800 £, how much higher can it get, if I plea guilty and loose

How do you intend to get around the S172 offences already committed without doing a plea deal? Contest the speeding and they may decide not to bother and prosecute for the S172 offences (bigger fine and 6 points each instead).

What speed do you think you were probably doing? Be honest, unless you have an easy technical defence based on the enforceability of the limit this will not be easy.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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jewels2009
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 12:11
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
Yes, you need to do a statutory declaration in respect of this offence which will be a s.172 offence rather than the speeding it refers to; that will set aside your conviction and the process will re-start so you will be asked how you plead, you need to indicate not guilty for both the s.172 and the speeding if that is also listed, as hopefully it will be. That will result in a date for a trial being set, on that occasion you can hopefully agree with the prosecutor that the s.172 charge will be dropped if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding. You also need to get the other four cases heard on the same occasion to avoid complications. As you already have 6 points and there are two locations involved in the five cases you refer to, even the most sympathetic court will give you a further 6 points so you will become a totter, liable to be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can show this would cause exceptional hardship to yourself or, more significantly, other people. I doubt the court will be overly sympathetic, given that your failure to receive the NIPs is owing to your own inaction in not updating the V5C or arranging forwarding of your post, but you should certainly ask.


OP. I think that you need to go and get a tea, sit down, and read this post again with the hindsight of the information now in your possession.

It sets out your position clearly, gives you the instructions of what to do to maniipulate that situation ( if possible) to your best advantage and tells you pretty much whst your expect to receive in terms of penalty points, and accompanying ban, not to forget the fine/ costs in addition. Regardless of hows and whys , which may assist you in fine reduction, you got yourself in to this situation, and asked for help, so why not take the help and act accordingly.

You have booked for SD and at that time ask the usher /whomever if the 5 other offences can be heard on the same docket. ( take a copy of each nipmalong with you, assist them to assist you).. Arguing the speeding, may be one your be lucky, but ultimately your inevitability getting a totting ban, so appear to take it with "Grace " and may be "Grace" will be lenient on the financial side.

For my edification as well, if the SD reverts the proceedings back to pleading stage, isn't the £800 fine also revolked, so the OP when bargaining has at that time no outstanding court imposed fine/costs?.

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kbo
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 12:26
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Only one S 172 "offence", pleading , I never received the S172 in the first place ...as well. What sort of offence is the one that consist in not responding to a police request, when you have never received it ...just from a theoretical aspect.
Say I plea not guilty to this "offence", how far can it go ? can it go to EU court of law, to examine these "offences", from a human right standpoints.
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 12:40
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:26) *
Say I plea not guilty to this "offence", how far can it go ? can it go to EU court of law, to examine these "offences", from a human right standpoints.

Already happened about 8 years ago, "we" lost.

Edit: Strictly that was about the PACE witness statement, however the principle of a requirement to name yourself has been tested.

This post has been edited by BaggieBoy: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 12:42
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andy_foster
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 12:49
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:26) *
Only one S 172 "offence", pleading , I never received the S172 in the first place ...as well. What sort of offence is the one that consist in not responding to a police request, when you have never received it ...just from a theoretical aspect.


The law says that it is served when it is delivered to your last known address. The law also says that you must update the address on your V5C when you move.

There is a statutory defence if you can persuade the court on the balance of probabilities that it was not possible, with reasonable diligence, for you to provide the information. Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

If, as you originally told us, it was not possible for you to update your V5C due to moving so frequently, then you would seem to have a defence, except that you seem to have subsequently told us that that was a lie

QUOTE
Say I plea not guilty to this "offence", how far can it go ? can it go to EU court of law, to examine these "offences", from a human right standpoints.


The ECJ only deals with EC law, and generally does not touch human rights issues - which are dealt with by the European Court of Human Rights. As the privilege against self incrimination issue was decided against the motorists by a large majority of the Grand Chamber of the ECtHR in O'Halloran and Francis v the UK,


--------------------
Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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kbo
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:26
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"except that you seem to have subsequently told us that that was a lie "

I must have been unclear somewhere, but there is no lie here ..I am seeking help/advices, I would be wasting my time (and your valuable one as well)

since oct 2014

1 year + : V5 address
2 weeks : addres A in NI
2-3 months address B in France
5 months address C in Ireland
2 months address B in France
2 weeks address D in UK
3 months address E in UK
5 months address F in UK
3 months address B in france-an other abroad
3 months address G in UK
6 months current address -periode during which I had the nips

One have to note, I lived mainly is rented rooms, following work with very limited visibility as to when I would have to move next, so very cumbersome to change addresses each time not knowing if I would be there when the V5 is returning


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kbo
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:57
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Also, not able to find if it is legal requirement that the camera be visible, as the location where I was spotted speeding, does not have any visible camera
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Jlc
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:08
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:57) *
Also, not able to find if it is legal requirement that the camera be visible, as the location where I was spotted speeding, does not have any visible camera

Nope. They can hide them in horse boxes should they wish. No warning signs required either.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:11
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:26) *
since oct 2014

1 year + : V5 address
2 weeks : addres A in NI
2-3 months address B in France
5 months address C in Ireland
2 months address B in France
2 weeks address D in UK
3 months address E in UK
5 months address F in UK
3 months address B in france-an other abroad
3 months address G in UK
6 months current address -periode during which I had the nips

One have to note, I lived mainly is rented rooms, following work with very limited visibility as to when I would have to move next, so very cumbersome to change addresses each time not knowing if I would be there when the V5 is returning


Your legal obligation is have an address on your V5C and DL "at which you can be contacted". Suggest you find a reliable friend or relative whose address you can use. Then you'll be complying with the law and won't get problerms like this again.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:12


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The Rookie
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 14:53
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:49) *
Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

I guess there is an argument that the RD starts when it is legally served, even if the person doesn't know its been served (which then creates an effective ongoing RD on that person just in case there is a service) and as such it wouldn't be contradictory.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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jewels2009
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 15:05
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:49) *
Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

I guess there is an argument that the RD starts when it is legally served, even if the person doesn't know its been served (which then creates an effective ongoing RD on that person just in case there is a service) and as such it wouldn't be contradictory.


RD isn't about when LS applies. Two seperate things
.
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kbo
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 10:26
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What can I expect if a single court hearing is arranged for all my NIPs ?
If I a plead guilty in exchange for drop of first S172. is it likely that I will receive a mathematical fine/points. 3 point for each offence, and 1 quarter, or 1 half of my salary for each ?
How does these grouped offences in a single hearing works like , in financial terms and points
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Jlc
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 10:35
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If the offences are from different occasions then they'll be sentenced individually, i.e. the relevant points and fine for each. (And then added up)

However, the court costs and surcharge will be considered once.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kbo
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 10:48
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Right, so it does not make sense from financial standpoint, to request a court hearing for all of them. Maybe take FPN wherever possible, and minimize NIP presented to a court ?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 10:57
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If you can, yes.

QUOTE (jewels2009 @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 13:49) *
Recent case law says that the court can (and invariably will) consider reasonable diligence to apply not from when you received the notice, but to include whether you could or should have taken steps to ensure that any such notices reached you. There is slightly earlier case law that says that reasonable diligence for the other statutory defence (inability to determine who was driving) applies from when the notice is received, and not before. The later case law failed to take this into consideration, and might be bad law - but that would be a big fight.

I guess there is an argument that the RD starts when it is legally served, even if the person doesn't know its been served (which then creates an effective ongoing RD on that person just in case there is a service) and as such it wouldn't be contradictory.


RD isn't about when LS applies. Two separate things
.

Or you could read what I wrote? Also what does 'when LS applies' mean, LS is an event, it creates no requirement for action of itself.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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kbo
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 11:07
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Sorry I read, but this paragraph you referring to, is hard to understand, there is acronyms and jargon experts, which is hard for a non-expert to understand. So if you could further explain, would be great
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andy_foster
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 11:54
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The Rookie was replying to jewels2009 (having their own private argument in your case thread)


--------------------
Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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thisisntme
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 12:57
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
"He means safety. Presumably, English is his second language, and his first language is one in which safety and security are essentially the same word."

I thought "security", has this definition: security noun: the state of being free from danger or threat. I found this definition perfectly relevant to our context ...Is the forum about grammatical correctness, or as it states "helping motorist to get justice" ? Is my English not good enough for anyone to understand ?

Pleading non guilty, with the hope to find lack of evidences about the speed offences, some might be dropped, is the police absolutely certain and infallible (sorry if not the correct work, just trying my best here). The first offense cost me 800 £, how much higher can it get, if I plea guilty and loose


Security has a different context where German would use sicherheit for safety and security, and similarly in Italian sicurezza. English is different. In English we don't use Road Security in the same way, but most understand what you mean.


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I reserve the right to be wrong.
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kbo
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 15:53
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I realized, when trying to see what day it was in the calendar, that some NIPS are so OLD, that I can recall what the purpose of the trip was.

Would it be a possible defense not to name myself, since I have a doubt about NIPs in April and May ? (first one in Jannuary).
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