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[NIP Wizard] multiple offences, same place, to outdated v5 addres
kbo
post Sun, 16 Jul 2017 - 23:18
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2017
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A338 Wessex way, dean park bournemouth
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penality : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year
I immediately called central ticket office, to find out, there were 4 more offences , with nip serverd to old address, 4 of them happened in the same place (Wessex way).
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:18:48 +0000
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post Sun, 16 Jul 2017 - 23:18
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StuartBu
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:13
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Sounds like a job for a Statutory Declaration for the January one but others will advise about this and about the other 4 .
Any specific reason why you didnt change your address on the V5C- have you taken steps to sort this now. did you give your present address when you phoned up?


This post has been edited by StuartBu: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 08:02
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Logician
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 08:40
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Yes, you need to do a statutory declaration in respect of this offence which will be a s.172 offence rather than the speeding it refers to; that will set aside your conviction and the process will re-start so you will be asked how you plead, you need to indicate not guilty for both the s.172 and the speeding if that is also listed, as hopefully it will be. That will result in a date for a trial being set, on that occasion you can hopefully agree with the prosecutor that the s.172 charge will be dropped if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding. You also need to get the other four cases heard on the same occasion to avoid complications. As you already have 6 points and there are two locations involved in the five cases you refer to, even the most sympathetic court will give you a further 6 points so you will become a totter, liable to be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can show this would cause exceptional hardship to yourself or, more significantly, other people. I doubt the court will be overly sympathetic, given that your failure to receive the NIPs is owing to your own inaction in not updating the V5C or arranging forwarding of your post, but you should certainly ask.

This post has been edited by Logician: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 08:40


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Jlc
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 08:57
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.

You'll have to expand - it's not that difficult to update the v5 and is a requirement to do so.

QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help[/b]

Logician has summarised but it appears all roads lead to an exceptional hardship plea to continue driving. 'Leniency' isn't going to help here - the Police may have considered some for repeated offences at the time depending on the circumstances. The sentencing guidelines and processes are fairly much set but if your licence hasn't been revoked already then you can continue driving for now. (It's not clear if the 6 points you listed predate the most recent 6 mentioned)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:29
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penalty : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year

You have/had 21 days from when you found out about the court case in which to perform a statutory declaration, so you need to get a weave on if its not to late.

With 5 cases against you you'll be facing a 6 month totting ban anyway.

You can do the SD at a solicitors at a cost of £10 or do it for free at your local court when you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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kbo
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 10:45
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S[quote]
Sounds like a job for a Statutory Declaration for the January one but others will advise about this and about the other 4 .
Any specific reason why you didnt change your address on the V5C- have you taken steps to sort this now. did you give your present address when you phoned up?
[/quotend]

Yes I gave the police and court, my current address: I would not have received the "copy" NIP/section172 otherwise. I have lived an average of 5-6 months in any given shared house since 2014. even staying abroad ...few months /weeks
I neglected the paperwork I have to admit. I am fixing it now
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kbo
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 10:56
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:40) *
Yes, you need to do a statutory declaration in respect of this offence which will be a s.172 offence rather than the speeding it refers to; that will set aside your conviction and the process will re-start so you will be asked how you plead, you need to indicate not guilty for both the s.172 and the speeding if that is also listed, as hopefully it will be. That will result in a date for a trial being set, on that occasion you can hopefully agree with the prosecutor that the s.172 charge will be dropped if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding. You also need to get the other four cases heard on the same occasion to avoid complications. As you already have 6 points and there are two locations involved in the five cases you refer to, even the most sympathetic court will give you a further 6 points so you will become a totter, liable to be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can show this would cause exceptional hardship to yourself or, more significantly, other people. I doubt the court will be overly sympathetic, given that your failure to receive the NIPs is owing to your own inaction in not updating the V5C or arranging forwarding of your post, but you should certainly ask.


I was fined 800 £, and 6 point for the first s.172, I am wondering if could ask for speed awareness course for the single offense which happened in different location on one side, and make a statutory declaration for the first offense, on wessex way, and try to get a court hearing for the 3 other offenses in the same location bundled together.

I have had to live an average of few weeks to few months in UK shared house and abroad for the last 3 years, sometimes working sometimes un-employed. I have to admit I neglected the aspect of paperwork, I was hoping some leniency plea for that, I know it is naïve, but it all I have
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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 11:07
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The course option is long gone.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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kbo
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 12:28
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 10:29) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penalty : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year

You have/had 21 days from when you found out about the court case in which to perform a statutory declaration, so you need to get a weave on if its not to late.

With 5 cases against you you'll be facing a 6 month totting ban anyway.

You can do the SD at a solicitors at a cost of £10 or do it for free at your local court when you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing.


Sorry meant 14 July not June. I am expecting a call from court/admin about the SD. Not sure what you mean by "you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing".
Is it pleading not guilty for the S.172, to bargain a guilty plea for the speed offence ?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 09:57) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
Due to multiple address changes in the last 3 years, I could not keep up with updating the V5, and as such could not react to speed offences/letter sent to old addresse in northern ireland.

You'll have to expand - it's not that difficult to update the v5 and is a requirement to do so.

QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
I wonder what is the best course of action? going to court seems inevitable, what then ? ask for leniency ? on the basis I was not aware of any of the offence til very end ? ...please help[/b]

Logician has summarised but it appears all roads lead to an exceptional hardship plea to continue driving. 'Leniency' isn't going to help here - the Police may have considered some for repeated offences at the time depending on the circumstances. The sentencing guidelines and processes are fairly much set but if your licence hasn't been revoked already then you can continue driving for now. (It's not clear if the 6 points you listed predate the most recent 6 mentioned)


- Well since my last address in Northern Ireland, had to change address: 9 times in matter of less than 3 years, in different countries sometimes for job purposes,/un-employment. . Relaying mails, changing addresses when you stay sometimes few months or even few weeks in a given place, is not that obvious
-
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jewels2009
post Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 12:29
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QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 13:22) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 10:29) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Mon, 17 Jul 2017 - 00:18) *
First speed offence happened on Wessex way near Bournemouth in January, I did not realize this until I got a message from my old landlady claiming an important letter from court -ordering me to pay 800£ / and take notice of penalty : 6 points. that is around the 14th of June of this year

You have/had 21 days from when you found out about the court case in which to perform a statutory declaration, so you need to get a weave on if its not to late.

With 5 cases against you you'll be facing a 6 month totting ban anyway.

You can do the SD at a solicitors at a cost of £10 or do it for free at your local court when you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing.


Sorry meant 14 July not June. I am expecting a call from court/admin about the SD. Not sure what you mean by "you'll have to plead not guilty in order to try and do the plea bargain at a subsequent hearing".
Is it pleading not guilty for the S.172, to bargain a guilty plea for the speed offence ?


Correct. In order to bargain you need both on the table, so NG to both, until court and bargain.
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kbo
post Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 08:48
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Would anyone advise if it make sen
s to fill in all NIPs and requested a court hearing, plead non guilty and challenge evidences and possibly resort to a solicitor ?
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Jlc
post Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 08:54
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QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:48) *
...plead non guilty and challenge evidences

On what basis do you plan to do this?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 08:58
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QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:48) *
Would anyone advise if it make sense to fill in all NIPs and requested a court hearing, plead non guilty and challenge evidences and possibly resort to a solicitor ?


If you have been convicted they are history.


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Jlc
post Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:39
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:58) *
QUOTE (kbo @ Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:48) *
Would anyone advise if it make sense to fill in all NIPs and requested a court hearing, plead non guilty and challenge evidences and possibly resort to a solicitor ?


If you have been convicted they are history.

Indeed, if convicted then the Statutory Declaration, as above, is the way to proceed. Or are these 'current' NIP's you have now received?

If so, you must name the driver regardless of whether you want to challenge them. (For which you'll need an actual defence)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:40


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 09:47
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How will you defend the S172 allegation when you yourself admit you committed the offences by not replying in the permitted 28 days. Whether or not the speeding occurred (and it almost certainly did) is irrelevant to that. Completing the S172 request after you've been summonsed doesn't change that and in fact throws away your bargaining point (rather foolishly).

I think you'd be much better advised to stick to plan A (or do nothing at all) than risk being found guilty of all S172 AND all original offences!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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kbo
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 19:35
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I have been convicted, while not even knowing I was tried for failure to identify driver (S172) AND the first speeding offence.
I am booked for a statutory declaration for S172 and first speed offence
The 5 other offences I have yet to be tried , and the police is expecting me to fill in the NIP and name drivers for them.
I am writing a letter accompanying the 5 NIPS, to request the 5 offences to be added to the hearing which will occur due to the statutory declaration of the first one.
I might bargain a drop of the S172 of the first NIP, in exchange of pleading guilty for the speeding offences.
Even if the alleged offenses are all below 48 for a 40 limit, they are all happening the exact same location, (except for one, in a different location with 39 for 30 limit, will try the scam of speed awareness lesson for that one).
I have no doubt I will loose my license ...I can only plea I had no knowledge of all this happening due to my V5 not updated.

If not bargain can be achieved, I will go for non guilty plea, and seek evidences of the "offences" ...
This whole thing looks like a system of legal thieves, a racket system ...the goal is to make money out of minor speed excesses, that can have nothing to do with security
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peterguk
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 19:38
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QUOTE (kbo @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:35) *
nothing to do with security


What does security have to do with speeding?

If you are able to plea bargain each S.172 for the underlying speeding offence, then you are no worse off than you would have been had your V5C been at an address where you could have received your mail in a timely fashion.

QUOTE (kbo @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:35) *
If not bargain can be achieved, I will go for non guilty plea, and seek evidences of the "offences" ...


A NG plea for the offences is going to be very expensive day out as it is 99.9% likely the evidence will be at hand. What do you hope to gain by doing that?



This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 19:48


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The Rookie
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 19:46
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Your in a pretty poor place, you commited a number of criminal offences and it seems your excuse is that it's because you commited another one by failing to update the V5C.

Your best bet is to get all the case to court and dealt with at the same time, one exceptional hardship plea, get them heard serperately and you can't use the same arguments for the two subsequent totting hearings and are pretty much a certainty to lose your licence for 6 months.

Plead not guilty at the stat Dec and then when you get a court date explain you want them all heard together.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:00


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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andy_foster
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:15
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:38) *
What does security have to do with speeding?


He means safety. Presumably, English is his second language, and his first language is one in which safety and security are essentially the same word.
His point is basically a rant about how the system is about extracting money, rather than road safety. However, unless he is going to overthrow the government before his court hearing(s), or is forming a political pressure group, his opinions are not relevant - which you already know.

QUOTE
If you are able to plea bargain each S.172 for the underlying speeding offence, then you are no worse off than you would have been had your V5C been at an address where you could have received your mail in a timely fashion.


Not sure that that is particularly relevant, but I am fairly sure that it is untrue - although once again that is not particularly relevant.
If the OP had received the NIP/s. 172s in a timely manner, or otherwise had the vehicle correctly registered at the material times, apart from the slim chance of being able to defend the speeding allegations if there were any viable defences (can't 'plea bargain' to plead guilty to the speeding in return for dropping the s. 172 and then try to defend the speeding you've just pleaded guilty to), having been aware of impending proceedings for one or two offences, the OP would not only be aware taht he was likely to lose his licence if he continued to drive at that speed at that location, but would presumably have been more aware of speed limits, and the need to abide by them, elsewhere.

QUOTE
QUOTE (kbo @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 20:35) *
If not bargain can be achieved, I will go for non guilty plea, and seek evidences of the "offences" ...


A NG plea for the offences is going to be very expensive day out as it is 99.9% likely the evidence will be at hand. What do you hope to gain by doing that?


Pleading not guilty to a single s. 172 offence and then losing would see a substantial increase in costs, and a loss of the 1/3 discount for an early guilty plea. However, assuming that the cases are heard together, the increase in costs would be dwarfed by the multiple fines, if he were to lose. I find your estimate of 99.9% to be somewhat fanciful. Whilst most of them were a few years ago, and procedures may have been tightened up since, I would estimate that in well in excess of 10% of the cases I have been involved in, insufficient evidence was adduced on the day.


--------------------
Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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kbo
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 08:40
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"He means safety. Presumably, English is his second language, and his first language is one in which safety and security are essentially the same word."

I thought "security", has this definition: security noun: the state of being free from danger or threat. I found this definition perfectly relevant to our context ...Is the forum about grammatical correctness, or as it states "helping motorist to get justice" ? Is my English not good enough for anyone to understand ?

Pleading non guilty, with the hope to find lack of evidences about the speed offences, some might be dropped, is the police absolutely certain and infallible (sorry if not the correct work, just trying my best here). The first offense cost me 800 £, how much higher can it get, if I plea guilty and loose








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