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is this self employment, or am I a worker
oldstoat
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 07:36
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Company A own and run a fleet of liveried HGV with uniformed drivers

Company B lease approx 20 of these liveried HGV from A. Company B has no employees/drivers

I was asked to set up a limited company so that I could drive Company B vehicles.

I wear the uniform of Company A

My start time, days of work and rate of pay are set by Company B

My work is set by Company A

I am the driver and cannot send someone else in my place.

I am required to clock in and out on a clocking in machine provided by company B

To me this does not feel like being truely self employed, despite the fact that I use my own Ltd company


Does anyone have any thoughts about this or advice cheers

This post has been edited by oldstoat: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 07:53


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post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 07:36
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The Rookie
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:06
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For what purposes?

For tax purposes (IR35) it sounds like it would count as employed, for employment rights its a grey area but it sounds more likely SE than employed from the information given.

QUOTE (oldstoat @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:36) *
My start time, days of work and rate of pay are set by Company B

My work is set by Company A

Perhaps you can clarify as that sounds contrary, or are you saying Company A is the one that tells you where to drive and when (within the working day)?

Worth looking at the ACAS website as its very useful. Start here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5890 and here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5071

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:10


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henrik777
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:12
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/j...-tribunal-rules

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2018/29.html

https://payme.co.uk/2017/11/23/gig-economy-rulings/

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/citysprin...-says-tribunal/

Pretty sure there's others.

I don't think any company has won a high profile "worker" case in terms of self employment.
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oldstoat
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:21
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:06) *
For what purposes?

For tax purposes (IR35) it sounds like it would count as employed, for employment rights its a grey area but it sounds more likely SE than employed from the information given.

QUOTE (oldstoat @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:36) *
My start time, days of work and rate of pay are set by Company B

My work is set by Company A

Perhaps you can clarify as that sounds contrary, or are you saying Company A is the one that tells you where to drive and when (within the working day)?

Worth looking at the ACAS website as its very useful. Start here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5890 and here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5071


company A sets the where to drive and when (within the working day)


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henrik777
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:38
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:21) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:06) *
For what purposes?

For tax purposes (IR35) it sounds like it would count as employed, for employment rights its a grey area but it sounds more likely SE than employed from the information given.

QUOTE (oldstoat @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:36) *
My start time, days of work and rate of pay are set by Company B

My work is set by Company A

Perhaps you can clarify as that sounds contrary, or are you saying Company A is the one that tells you where to drive and when (within the working day)?

Worth looking at the ACAS website as its very useful. Start here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5890 and here http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5071


company A sets the where to drive and when (within the working day)


In many areas of the gig economy people work via agencies for the people who need the work done.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:50
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You sound employed by me. The more contentious question might be who your employer is.


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The Rookie
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:55
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That would probably depend on who pays his LLC which I would hazard a guess at is Co A.


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Slapdash
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:13
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it looks likely to fall foul of the IR35 legislation which will 'merely' affect taxation (i.r. 95% of the income taxed as paye).

It is unlikely an ET would find you an actual employee of Company B (or A).

It is reasonably likely at ET would find you a worker of B and possibly A.

What are you hoping to achieve ?

There is no indication of self employment anywhere in the tru sense (though I appreciate that a lot of folk providing services through their own ltd co regard themselves as self employed).
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Umtwebby
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 12:29
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I subscribe to this bloke - http://www.danielbarnett.co.uk/site/blog/employment-blog/

He reports on cases which are determined and published. There is a search facility which helps to locate subject areas such as the definition of workers.
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oldstoat
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 17:09
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:55) *
That would probably depend on who pays his LLC which I would hazard a guess at is Co A.



Its actually Company B who pay me

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:13) *
it looks likely to fall foul of the IR35 legislation which will 'merely' affect taxation (i.r. 95% of the income taxed as paye).

It is unlikely an ET would find you an actual employee of Company B (or A).

It is reasonably likely at ET would find you a worker of B and possibly A.

What are you hoping to achieve ?

There is no indication of self employment anywhere in the tru sense (though I appreciate that a lot of folk providing services through their own ltd co regard themselves as self employed).


I am asking because I want to know what my status is. I think I am a worker.


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henrik777
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 17:22
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 18:09) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:55) *
That would probably depend on who pays his LLC which I would hazard a guess at is Co A.



Its actually Company B who pay me

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:13) *
it looks likely to fall foul of the IR35 legislation which will 'merely' affect taxation (i.r. 95% of the income taxed as paye).

It is unlikely an ET would find you an actual employee of Company B (or A).

It is reasonably likely at ET would find you a worker of B and possibly A.

What are you hoping to achieve ?

There is no indication of self employment anywhere in the tru sense (though I appreciate that a lot of folk providing services through their own ltd co regard themselves as self employed).


I am asking because I want to know what my status is. I think I am a worker.



You're probably a worker. If you try to assert workers rights such as NMW or holiday pay you'll probably find you're no longer required.

This post has been edited by henrik777: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 17:22
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oldstoat
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 17:26
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QUOTE (henrik777 @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 18:22) *
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 18:09) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:55) *
That would probably depend on who pays his LLC which I would hazard a guess at is Co A.



Its actually Company B who pay me

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:13) *
it looks likely to fall foul of the IR35 legislation which will 'merely' affect taxation (i.r. 95% of the income taxed as paye).

It is unlikely an ET would find you an actual employee of Company B (or A).

It is reasonably likely at ET would find you a worker of B and possibly A.

What are you hoping to achieve ?

There is no indication of self employment anywhere in the tru sense (though I appreciate that a lot of folk providing services through their own ltd co regard themselves as self employed).


I am asking because I want to know what my status is. I think I am a worker.



You're probably a worker. If you try to assert workers rights such as NMW or holiday pay you'll probably find you're no longer required.



funnily, that was pretty much what I thought. I was purely curious to see if my understanding was correct.


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Slapdash
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 17:48
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"I am asking because I want to know what my status is. I think I am a worker."

I understand that.

Your status is that you are an employee of your Ltd Co (ignoring the semantic difference between that and an office holder which depebds on whether you are a director and if so have a contract of employment).

Your employer is responsible for your employment rights.

You may also be a worker for company b or a or even both.

But that doesnt advance anything. There any differing definitions dependant upon what is being tested and what is being established (or not).

Employee rights and worker rights are different things.

If fir example, you had been assessed inside IR35 (or decided for yourself that you were) that would make no difference in your status with the consumer of your services.

However if they end client had decided to dispose of your services and you believed unfairly there is some chance an ET might find in yoir favour. Unusual though.

If you had suffered some form of workplace abuse you may well be protected.

Here might be a good place for you to pose your question and specifics of the issue you are trying to resolve:-

https://forums.contractoruk.com
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SatNavSam
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 22:07
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Google Pimlico Plumbers employment tribunal. Might be of interest.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 06:28
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QUOTE (SatNavSam @ Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 23:07) *
Google Pimlico Plumbers employment tribunal. Might be of interest.

Why Google it when it’s linked above?

If you try and assert workers rights, as noted you’ll probably no longer be required, BUT if you are a worker that will probably be wrongful dismissal.

Being paid by Company B direct looks like a way of reducing the clarity that you would otherwise be a worker of Company A.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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roythebus
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 00:21
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Surely if you're employed by your own company C then your company acts as a contractor to company B to drive company A's vehicles. Company B sounds like a driver agency.

You being employed by company C means you are not self employed even though you may be the only one working for the company. If your company loses the contract with B then it's tough titties, it happens. It depends what contract C has with B.

Does B pay you personally or your company, then your company pays you? It sounds like a complex legal-ish fiddle so that A gets their van driven by someone who they don't wish to employ directly for some reason.

This post has been edited by roythebus: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 00:24
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nigelbb
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 05:28
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 01:21) *
Surely if you're employed by your own company C then your company acts as a contractor to company B to drive company A's vehicles. Company B sounds like a driver agency.

You being employed by company C means you are not self employed even though you may be the only one working for the company. If your company loses the contract with B then it's tough titties, it happens. It depends what contract C has with B.

Does B pay you personally or your company, then your company pays you? It sounds like a complex legal-ish fiddle so that A gets their van driven by someone who they don't wish to employ directly for some reason.

The reason is to avoid paying national insurance, pension, sick pay & the other responsibilities of an employer.


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