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Help needed.. please ..::UPDATED::...
ColinR
post Tue, 9 Mar 2004 - 23:06
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Ok this is the second time I've had to write all this! First time it didn’t post!!

Firstly I am from Scotland.

I received a “Reminder NIP” dated 16 January 2004 for an alleged offence on the 23rd November 2003.

Note that this was a Reminder - I did not receive the first!

Anyway, after sitting down to fill in the form I realised that something looked out of place. Upon further inspection I noticed that the Registration Number of the offending vehicle was not mine.

After pondering for a while I decided that the most appropriate section to fill in would be Part 2 (Not the driver). After filling this in I decided that I should back this up with a brief letter (See below)

QUOTE (Letter to Camera Enforcement Unit (27/01/2004))
Dear Sirs,

I wanted to add some further information.

Firstly, I would like to mention that I did not receive the first “Notice of Intended Prosecution”, otherwise I would have dealt with this sooner.

Secondly, I am unsure what section to complete as I am not, nor have I ever been, the registered keeper of the vehicle you have recorded, “J861***”.  For your records I have completed what seemed like that most appropriate section, ‘Part 2’, and returned it with this letter.

I have also kept copies of these correspondences for my own records.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours sincerely,

Colin Ritchie


As expected there was a follow up to this letter in the form of an answering message left on my answering machine yesterday (08/03/2004) - asking me to return the call, which I did today (09/03/2004).

QUOTE (Summary of Tel. Conversation (09/03/2004))
Firstly he explained that sometimes the DVLA make mistakes (?)  and asked if I drove a similar vehicle.  Out of good will I informed him that I did indeed drive a Honda.  He then went on to ask for the registration of my car (‘Yeh right!’  I though), I told him that I couldn’t remember it off the top of my head, he asked if I could call him back today with it, to while I replied I was unfortunately working until 8 and wouldn’t be able to do that.  He mentioned that if I could get the details and call him back at some point it would be a great.

He went onto mention how the car they have recorded has changed owners since the alleged offence, and has also changed registration (Not sure to the relevance of this……).

The call was pretty much brought to a close with me extremely confused!!


So what should I do now?

I’m not going to put down my thoughts as I am confused about the whole situation to be honest!

Thanks in advance,

Colin Ritchie

P.S. Sorry if anything looks wrong or doesn't make sence - long day at work as well as having to type all this twice, and research my options!
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post Tue, 9 Mar 2004 - 23:06
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dave99
post Tue, 9 Mar 2004 - 23:39
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I wonder if your reg plate wasnt clearly visible and they might have used the PNC thing to search for cars of that description with possible matches - they are not allowed to do that. I would say you really need to see the pictures to be sure of that.

Not sure if you should ask for them or just go down the "not my car" route from the start (is the reg number anything like yours?), I guess someone will be along shortly to comment smile.gif
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firefly
post Wed, 10 Mar 2004 - 09:39
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Hi Colin,

Quite a story. The way the ticket office tried to extract your registration plate is something else.

You will be glad to know that fatal errors on NIPs will invalidate them! Names and addresses can be amended but not registrations. See the "slip rule" for details.

How did the ticket office get your name and address from an incorrect registration plate I wonder? It sounds like the NIP that was issued had the wrong driver registration number on it as a result of an admin cock-up.

For what it's worth, I think you have dealt with the situation correctly. Firstly, you have written a covering letter to explain the situation. Secondly, you have submitted an NIP stating that you have no knowledge of the vehicle in question (or some such similar statement, they vary). In my opinion, you should certainly not offer the registration number to the ticket office.


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Observer
post Wed, 10 Mar 2004 - 10:31
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QUOTE (firefly)
In my opinion, you should certainly not offer the registration number to the ticket office.


Agreed. Do nothing. If they call again say that you have been advised not to provide any more information.
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ColinR
post Wed, 10 Mar 2004 - 20:46
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Thanks guys.

I've decided that the best course of action is no action. If I get a call from the ticket office again I will inform them that I am not disclosing any personal information without seeking legal advice.

Thanks,

Colin
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 11 Mar 2004 - 01:37
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Colin,
Is this Lothians & Borders? If so, they seem to be making a habit of sending so-called 'reminders', when the supposed 'original' had not been received at all.
There was eeven one case where the accused was visited at his place of work!
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ColinR
post Tue, 23 Mar 2004 - 20:29
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Hi folks...

More help needed!!!!

It is Fife Police that are dealing with it.

ok the story where I left off.

On advice from Pepipoo (and several others), I did not return the call.

The police officer has called back again today (23/04/2004) again asking for my registration. I informed him that I didn't see why I had to provide it as it is not my registration mark that has been recorded! He told me (contrary to the first conversation) that according to the DVLA the car marked J861 MLB has been registered in my name since November!! I told him that this was not the case, and I would like to get in touch with the DVLA in order to sort this out. He told me that it would be easier and quicker for me to give him my reg so he could get in touch with the DVLA. I told him that I didn't understand what my rights were and that I would like to seak advice before taking this further, I told him that I would call him back later in the evening as I was shopping (which I was) and had no details with me. He said that he had been a police officer for 28 years and shopping was not an excuse for not giving him the details. He told me that he could get in touch with Kirkcaldy police station and have them come round tonight and take me down to the station!!?!? and he said it would be easier if I just gave him the details. I restate the above and he asked me if I understood that he was a police officer, which I did, and that he could charge me for Failing to provide. At this point I was wondering around Halfords like a lunatic, and the batteries ran out on my phone.. dam Orange SPV's! When I got home and plugged in my mobile I had a message telling me that he did not appretiate being cut off and that he was passing this to Kirkcaldy Police who will charge me with Failing to Provide the Identity of the driver!!!

I've tried calling the DVLA this evening to find out why the reg plate is in my name (I am extremely concerned at this to say the least!!), but "All 220 lines for DVLA Enquiries are busy"

I have emailed a friend who works for the DVLA and am hoping he will be able to find out why I am linked with this plate tomorrow.

I am unhappy with the way this has been delt with and the conduct of FIFE POLICE, in dealing with the matter!

How can they possible charge me with failing to provide when I have clearly stated it is not my car and that it needs further investigation????

I sent back the form as requested, I took time out to write a letter explaining - thats my bit done as far as Im concerned.

If they want to investigate it further thats up to them...

What should I do now? What is the likely course that this will take?

Please Help me, Ive got enough things worrying me at moment through work, and with this on top stress/depression levels are at an all time high(or low depending how you look at it)!

Thanks,

And extremely unhappy punter
A.K.A Colin
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g_attrill
post Tue, 23 Mar 2004 - 21:47
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I am not a lawyer, but you are required to give the details (ie. name/address) regarding any vehicle (unless you do not know and can not find out with reasonably diligence.. blah...) BUT I am pretty sure you do not have to give them YOUR registration number. They seem to have all your details and there is nothing more you are legally required to give them.

I'm not sure what you should do, but it seems fishy - probably down to incompetence rather than malice.

Gareth
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jeffreyarcher
post Wed, 24 Mar 2004 - 01:36
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IMO they are 'at it'.
You are not obliged to provide your car's registration number. You are obliged to provide the driver information. You have answered that. You have said that it is not your vehicle. That leaves the possibility that the DVLA have erroneously got you registered as the keeper, in which case they could charge you with 'failing to provide'. If it does get to court, you can defend it on the grounds that it is a mistake, and therefore, it is not in your power to give the information.
Why is he trying to intimidate you if he had a case? Why not just charge you and be done with it? As I said, IMO, they are 'at it'. Did you get a log book for this car last November? Of course not.
Even if this other car is registered in your name, what relevence is the number of your own car? They are lying, pure and simple.
What offence is stated on the 'reminder' NIP?
BTW, 'failure to provide' is not an arrestable offence.
What you do is up to you, you may just want to tell them your number. They could, after all, send a local plod round to your house and just note the number of the car sitting outside.
However, if it was me, I think that I'd stick to the line, "I have already provided all the information I know about J861 MLB and have nothing further to add."

BTW The Road Traffic Act 1988, Section 172.
(2) Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which this section applies—
(a) the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police, and
(B) any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.

It says nothing in there about providing details of vehicles. Further, your own vehicle is not alleged to be guilty of an offence.
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firefly
post Wed, 24 Mar 2004 - 08:48
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Hi Colin,

What an absolutely disgraceful story. When all this blows over (which it will), then I would be writing a very strongly worded letter to the Chief Constable of Fife Police.

Anyway........don't worry, they don't have a thing on you.

Let us look at the facts in order :

(1) You receive an NIP to your address for a vehicle registration mark J861 MLB.
(2) 27/1/04 You write a letter explaining your actions and return the NIP form with section 2 filled out, thus fulfilling your s172 requirements.
(3) 8&9/3/04 Phone call from (to) police asking you to give your registration number, to which you declined (correctly).
(4) 23/3/04 Police phone back asking for registration. Policeman getting threatening (totally unwarranted) and telling you that you will be taken to "the station".

The policeman has asserted that J861 MLB is registered to you. This is the most blatant and dishonest "try on" I have yet heard. jeffreyarcher has offered sound advice in my view. You have done all you can. For piece of mind, get in touch with the DVLA (as you have done) and ask them if registration number J861 MLB is in your name (they won't tell you who it's registered to if it isn't you). If it isn't you then let the police shout and scream all they like, they can't touch you with a barge pole.


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jeffreyarcher
post Wed, 24 Mar 2004 - 10:40
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Not that it's directly relevent to your case, however, you may wish to read this thread on Pistonheads, in which the police tried to intimidate someone into giving driver information.
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ColinR
post Wed, 24 Mar 2004 - 14:56
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Thanks all.

Im waiting to here back from the DVLA. Not sure what they will do, whether they will right to the police as well as copying me in.

Only time will tell.

I think I have done the correct things here. After all, I have never been given confirmation that it was the police on the phone and I was not willing to give personal details over an unsecure mobile telephone... In the middle of a shop.

Personally I think the officer is probably in a dead end job and enjoys the little satisfaction he gets out of winding people like me up! laugh.gif

Anyway... I shall post what happens.

No knocks on the door from the police yet though biggrin.gif

Colin
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Roger
post Sun, 10 Oct 2004 - 08:00
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Just one further potential twist :

Are you *certain* that the call is from a genuine officer? He has asked you to return the call several times. Has he given you a direct number and PC number? If so, it might be worth telephoning a publicly-published local police station number and asking them to ratify (or otherwise) the detail passed to you. It just might be some also-ran gettinmg kicks that has nothing to do with the force.
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agbrowne
post Fri, 25 Mar 2005 - 02:32
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I'm afraid that if this had been me, I'd have filled in section 2, returned the form and ignored any subsequent communications on the subject. Why the hell did you give them your telephone number?

I know that there's space on the NIP for that but there's no law that says you have to have a phone. I NEVER give my phone number to anyone unless I want them to have it.

All this only goes to prove that speed cameras are simply an excuse to raise revenue and should be scrapped without further ado.
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