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PCN for being parked in a suspended bay
RoadWalrus
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 00:52
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Hi,

My dad lives on a road that has parking bays for residents with permits.

There's a parking bay suspension notice, I have no idea how long it was up for. He may or may not have already been parked there before the notice went up (though I suspect he parked there afterwards). He got a text from a neighbor yesterday morning at 6am warning him that the suspension had started, but my dad didn't see it until 08:15, and when he went to move his car, he already had the PCN.

My mother is disabled and was a blue badge holder, but as she can't drive anymore, my dad drives her in the aforementioned vehicle.

My dad is extremely overworked caring for my mum, and it's likely that he just didn't see the notice, or forgot about it, which is the only reason I'm asking if there's a way to weasel out of the PCN. I'm fairly sure he was in the wrong, regardless I think the fine is unfair, and in my opinion they should have given nearby residents a written notice.

I'm including a picture of the notice. Sorry about the extensive redacting, it's not my personal information to give away.

Thanks for reading.

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post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 00:52
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makara
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 00:57
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Back of PCN too - and no need to remove the location, as someone will probably ask you for the Google Street View link
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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 01:59
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Please show us the back of the PCN, and if possible a photo of the suspension sign.


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DancingDad
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 09:29
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And the location, a streetview link is good.

Where was the sign in relation to the vehicle ?
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RoadWalrus
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 13:38
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Hi folks, thanks for the quick replies.

Link to street view

The suspension includes "END 3 PERMIT HOLDER PARKING SPACES OUTSIDE NUMBERS 53 TO 57" 53 is the left most house, 57 is the right side semi (with a satellite dish on the chimney). In the street view you can see that the silver Ford is parked outside of 53, and the black Nissan is parked outside 57, while 55 has an empty space. The parking suspension was attached to the silver pole which the silver Ford is parked in front of.

My father claims that he was parked across spaces 55-57, so the front of his car would be midway down the Nissan, and the read of the car would be in front of 55. In other words he was without a doubt inside the parking suspension.

Back of the PCN


Photo of the parking bay suspension

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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 13:56
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I cannot find fault with the PCN or the sign (which has DFT authorisation). See what others say, but these are my thoughts:

At this stage I would send informal representations asking the council to exercise discretion to cancel, explaining how much of a burden it is for your dad to care for your mum (Don't exaggerate, but it doesn't sound like you'd need to), and that he didn't see or forgot about the sign due to the pressure he is under in having to look after her. Mention the blue badge and send a copy. You have a fair chance they will cancel, and if they don't, they should confirm when the sign was put up so you'll know whether the sign went up before or after he parked the car (and if the sign was put up only very shortly before the restriction came into force, that might be a ground of appeal). In any even if they reject the representations, they normally re-offer the discount.

Remember your dad should either make the representations himself, or if you're the one who writes to the council, he should include a signed letter authorising you to make representations on his behalf.


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DancingDad
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 14:24
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IMO 10 minute grace period applies.

Dad was lawfully parked in a designated parking place right up to 8am when the suspension kicked in.
May not have been in the restricted hours but still a designated parking place
PCN was served at 8.08am
Three whole minutes before it lawfully could be.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made
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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 14:54
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Well spotted, I think you're right.


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RoadWalrus
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 16:26
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 14:24) *
IMO 10 minute grace period applies.

Dad was lawfully parked in a designated parking place right up to 8am when the suspension kicked in.
May not have been in the restricted hours but still a designated parking place
PCN was served at 8.08am
Three whole minutes before it lawfully could be.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made


Very well spotted. I've done a little digging and not seen any legislation related to parking suspensions which might interfere with that assessment, so this seems like a good way to go. I'll wait a little while before submitting an appeal, in case anybody else has something to say.
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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 16:55
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QUOTE (RoadWalrus @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 16:26) *
Very well spotted. I've done a little digging and not seen any legislation related to parking suspensions which might interfere with that assessment, so this seems like a good way to go. I'll wait a little while before submitting an appeal, in case anybody else has something to say.

Note you should still ask the council to exercise discretion to cancel, say something like "If I am wrong about the 10 minute rule, the council should still exercise discretion to cancel because..."


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RoadWalrus
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 20:03
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (RoadWalrus @ Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 16:26) *
Very well spotted. I've done a little digging and not seen any legislation related to parking suspensions which might interfere with that assessment, so this seems like a good way to go. I'll wait a little while before submitting an appeal, in case anybody else has something to say.

Note you should still ask the council to exercise discretion to cancel, say something like "If I am wrong about the 10 minute rule, the council should still exercise discretion to cancel because..."

I feel like I would weaken my resolve by mixing the two. Saying "This ticket was illegally issued" is fantastic, but if I follow it up with a sob story then it looks like I'm not sure of myself, and they may try to be adamant, in the hope that I pay up.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 20:29
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It's called covering the bases.

Dear Sirs
The PCN seems to have been unlawfully issued due to the 10 minute grace period etc etc.
Should you disagree, any transgression was minor and I would ask that you acknowledge that by exercising your discretion.....
Should you still reject, please explain exactly why the parking bay is not a designated parking bay within the terms of the 2015 amendment to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations

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RoadWalrus
post Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 00:14
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I might be misunderstanding your replies, could you please clarify:

Are you both suggesting that I should request they exercise their discretion based on
1) my father's extenuating circumstances
2) the duration of the vehicle being parked in the suspended area being short
3) both

Also, thanks for the template @DancingDad
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cp8759
post Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 01:22
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QUOTE (RoadWalrus @ Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 01:14) *
I might be misunderstanding your replies, could you please clarify:

Are you both suggesting that I should request they exercise their discretion based on
1) my father's extenuating circumstances
2) the duration of the vehicle being parked in the suspended area being short
3) both

Also, thanks for the template @DancingDad

I think you are misunderstanding.

You need to tell the council that

a) The PCN is invalid as it was issued within the 10 minute grace period, as it's invalid as a matter of law they must cancel it (if they agree the PCN is invalid they have no discretion not to cancel it, it's out of their hands)
b) If you are wrong about a, would they take please exercise their discretion to cancel due to extenuating circumstances.

The form of words proposed by DancingDad is good, I would use that.


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RoadWalrus
post Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 15:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 01:22) *
QUOTE (RoadWalrus @ Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 01:14) *
I might be misunderstanding your replies, could you please clarify:

Are you both suggesting that I should request they exercise their discretion based on
1) my father's extenuating circumstances
2) the duration of the vehicle being parked in the suspended area being short
3) both

Also, thanks for the template @DancingDad

I think you are misunderstanding.

You need to tell the council that

a) The PCN is invalid as it was issued within the 10 minute grace period, as it's invalid as a matter of law they must cancel it (if they agree the PCN is invalid they have no discretion not to cancel it, it's out of their hands)
b) If you are wrong about a, would they take please exercise their discretion to cancel due to extenuating circumstances.

The form of words proposed by DancingDad is good, I would use that.


I understood your point, I just wasn't convinced that DancingDad was suggesting quite the same thing, since his template alluded to discretion based on (2) rather than (1).
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 25 Mar 2018 - 16:51
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This case and review agree that the grace period applies

2170123723

I heard from Mr Pedro, the partner of the appellant at a hearing today.
The appellant makes several points about the validity of the suspension of this bay.
In the first place it is said that Ms MacDougall and Mr Pedro both parked the car together for the last time before the Christmas festivities on Christmas Eve in this bay immediately outside the lowrise flats where they live. It remained there until 6 January when the Penalty Charge Notice was issued. They are adamant that there was no suspension warning sign there on that day nor on any of the days upon which they walked past the bay over the Christmas period. The first that they were aware that there had been a suspension was when they discovered that the car had been removed, and they noticed the yellow suspension sign on the post some 3 or 4 vehicle lengths away. I found Mr Pedro an honest witness and gave weight to his evidence that there was no yellow suspension sign erected up to 14 days before the date of the suspension itself, as claimed by the Authority.
I have considered the officer's record as to the suspension, on which the council relies for the assertion that the suspension sign was indeed erected 14 days prior to 6 January. I note that the wording of the record is not in terms conclusive of the fact that a sign had been erected – it merely seems to confirm that an order for suspension had been made. To that extent therefore and taken together with the persuasive evidence of Mr Pedro I conclude that there is some confusion about when the suspension sign was in fact erected.
I also take into account Mr Pedro's evidence that during this period there were multiple suspensions erected over a period of time in this street and for short periods. It is in those circumstances well within the bounds of likelihood that the keeping track of the suspensions and necessary signage had become difficult.

There is force in the argument that the officer should have allowed a 10 minute period of grace before issuing the Penalty Charge Notice, in line with Section 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015. This is the provision which applies where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and been left beyond the permitted parking period. The crucial element is that the initial parking must have been lawful. In this case a course it was, at the time the vehicle was left the suspension was not actually in force, even if there is debate about when the warning sign was erected. The suspension came into force at 8 AM on the morning of 6 January and the PCN was issued at 8:02 AM. In the circumstances I conclude that the issue of this PCN was not compliant with the requirements of the "10 minute grace period" regulations and that the appeal could be allowed on that basis.

A final point is on the wording of the sign itself. The appellant points out that it was imprecise, referring to the suspended spaces in relation to the numbers of properties on the opposite side of the street. This can be contrasted with a sign relating to a later suspension (one of the series) in the same bay, a photograph of which was produced by Mr Pedro and which refers to property numbers on the side of the street on which the bay is situated.

And the review

This is an application for review by the Enforcement Authority on the basis that the original Adjudicator has erred in law.
In effect, Enforcement Authority ground is that the original Adjudicator should not have held that Regulation 4(3) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, as inserted by Regulation 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015, that no penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes, does apply.
The Enforcement Authority submit that when a bay is suspended, as was the position in this present case, the prevision cannot apply.
In many cases it will not and certainly will not if the vehicle is parked after the suspension comes into force.
In this case the suspension came into force at 08:00 and the Penalty Charge Notice was issued at 08:02.
The vehicle was in a resident parking bay for which it was assigned a resident parking permit. The owner had paid to park their vehicle in the bay by purchasing the permit. It is irrelevant whether it is a physical or virtual permit. Regulation 4(4)(b) of the 2007 Regulations, as amended therefore applies because a period of parking that had been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place and that period ended at 08:00.
Considering the submission before me carefully I find no ground for review of the original Adjudicator’s decision, which therefor stands.


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RoadWalrus
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 17:34
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Thank you for your post, PASTMYBEST. Unfortunately I had already sent off the letter to dispute the PCN, otherwise I likely would have referenced your case.

I recently received a letter from the council rejecting my appeal, though given the verdict in PASTMYBEST's post, I feel like their reasoning is flawed. They claim that "grace periods are not required when a vehicle is clearly parked in contravention", which I think is a little strange, since the vehicle was parked legally until the suspension came into effect. Thoughts?
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cp8759
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 19:20
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QUOTE (RoadWalrus @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 18:34) *
Thank you for your post, PASTMYBEST. Unfortunately I had already sent off the letter to dispute the PCN, otherwise I likely would have referenced your case.

I recently received a letter from the council rejecting my appeal, though given the verdict in PASTMYBEST's post, I feel like their reasoning is flawed. They claim that "grace periods are not required when a vehicle is clearly parked in contravention", which I think is a little strange, since the vehicle was parked legally until the suspension came into effect. Thoughts?

You now need to wait for the Notice to Owner before you can make formal representations. In the mean time have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1370799. I think you can use much of it verbatim but obviously adapt the details to match your case, and in ground 3 replace the reference to case 2170256432 with case 2170123723 (the one given by PMB in post 16).

When you get the Notice to Owner, upload it on here before replying, just in case it includes any errors we can use as further grounds of appeal.


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RoadWalrus
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 21:18
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So I discussed it with my father and he doesn't want to risk having to pay the doubled fine. I realise that the threat it a scare tactic to pressure you into paying rather than challenging, but... it's certainly working. It seems that if I wait for the Notice to Owner, then he'll be obliged to pay the full fine if his challenge is rejected. Is there a way of getting to a definitive answer without risking incurring the full fine?
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cp8759
post Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 21:38
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QUOTE (RoadWalrus @ Sun, 8 Apr 2018 - 22:18) *
So I discussed it with my father and he doesn't want to risk having to pay the doubled fine. I realise that the threat it a scare tactic to pressure you into paying rather than challenging, but... it's certainly working. It seems that if I wait for the Notice to Owner, then he'll be obliged to pay the full fine if his challenge is rejected. Is there a way of getting to a definitive answer without risking incurring the full fine?

The short answer is no, you cannot get a definitive answer without the full amount being in play. Having said that, in my view there is no meaningful risk, as the PCN is invalid, the regulations are what they are and the PCN was issued prematurely. Conservatively speaking, I put the chances of you winning at adjudication at around 99%. The council have rejected the appeal primarily because the person who issued the reply is not legally trained and they don't know the regulations (and they want the money, which is why Parliament established an independent tribunal system).

However the way to look at it is this: it would be a minimum of 3 months before this got to adjudication, then even if your dad lost he'd have another month before he had to pay, so if he fights this he won't have to pay anything till mid August. Save up around £4 a week, and by then he'll have the extra £65. In the likely event that he wins, he can buy himself a nice treat.


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