PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Newham car towed away, Newham car towed away
arif19
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 08:31
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



Hi
Firstly apologies if i have posted this in the wrong place.
A few weeks ago my car was involved in a hit and run, eventually my car was collected by insurance and on Thursday 17th 2019 returned back to me by the insurances garage as a write off. When it was collected they insisted in removing my Newham residents permit holder permit, (i was not aware of this at the time as i wasn't around when the car was collected).
The car came back to me on Thursday 17th Jan 2019 around 10:15am, when i did not know the permit was not on display, i had parked the car in Ruskin Ave E12 and the PCN states it was issued to me at 10.37am and around 11:30 am it was towed away by Newham Council.

I eventually found out Newham council had towed the car away and have recovered the vehicle back from them and paid £265, £200 for releasing the vehicle and £65 for the PCN charge.
I wanted to know how I can appeal against this, as it was a genuine mistake and i found it amazing that the car was towed away in less tan 1 hour of the PCN being issued, (which i did not see) i don't have any pictures of the PCN being visible on the car, as i cannot obtain them online, due to it maybe the PCN already being paid, but i understand from other posts on this site that i can request this, which I will.
The other thing is, it appears the only form of appear is by completing a form the car pound gave.
Also i'm not sure, but the bonnet of the vehicle was on the open latch and my fog light is smashed, this was not the case when i gave the vehicle to the insurances garage, but unsure if this was caused by the garage or Newham Council.
Also in regards to uploading the PCN and other docs, do i need to remove blank out any personal info before posting here?

Thanks
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 34)
Advertisement
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 08:31
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
arif19
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 07:37
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:56) *
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.545606,0....6384!8i8192

Might be useful that Newham have gone to virtual permits, on a rolling program for renewals and new.

Issue could not have happened if you'd renewed or started your permit in the last month as no display is necessary.

I can think of a couple of ways you could use that.


i did actually renew my permit and it started from the 05/06 of Jan 2019... but not aware of any rule that it wasnt necessary to display it? is that the case?

Thanks

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 15:12) *
....except all the time involved!

At present you only have a case based on mitigation, which is not something an adjudicator can consider.

IMO, you need to see if you could make a stronger case based on impropriety.

In your reps you should acknowledge that the permit was not displayed, include the garage's documentation(even better if this is timed), explain that you'd just taken possession from the garage who, unbeknown to you, had removed the permit. (you've not explained how this came to be given to someone else e.g. did they take the car in for repair?). As you hold a permit, you could understand, and perhaps forgive, the issuing of a PCN but why did the onboard CEO not carry out additional checks on the VRM before authorising removal, after all it cannot be the council's policy to remove a resident's car simply because a permit is not displayed, can it?


I'll check the garage documentation and see if there is a time on it.... and if there isnt maybe i can contact that to see if they can provide this to me, of when the car as dropped off, long shot but i guess any bit of extra documentation could help with the appeal.

Yes so the permit was removed by the person collecting the vehicle and handed over to a family member, and the car was taken to a garage for a quote/repair, as mentioned when it was returned i was not aware the permit had been removed at the time of when teh garage collected the car.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 15:12) *
why did the onboard CEO not carry out additional checks on the VRM before authorising removal, after all it cannot be the council's policy to remove a resident's car simply because a permit is not displayed, can it?

Is exactly one of my points re the fact they've gone virtual: Obviously existing paper permits haven't been added to that particular database readily
accessible by CEOs.
Not disputing there's still a requirement to display if you're still on paper but it renders it pot luck whether or not you get a PCN/towed,
based on when your current permit began.



hmm very strange as mentioned in another reply my permit was renewed only from 05/06 of Jan 2019.... so if they have moved virtual i find it strange why i wasnt added that database

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 16:05) *
Council ought to use discretion to cancel of course as some do with a res permit that's say dropped off the windscreen. But we know Newham won't (I'll be very surprised if they do).


yes newham council are not known to cancel/refund PCNs
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:01
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,063
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



IMO, there are two sepatate aspects here:
1. The issuing of a PCN;
2. The removal.

As regards 1, the burden of justification falls on YOU. This was your fault in the eyes of the law: you parked the car and left it without checking that you were complying with the conditions of use of the permit. (by the way, how was this normally displayed e.g. directly on to the windscreen, sitting in a holder etc?)

But as regards 2, the burden of justification falls on the council. Why did they remove your car so soon after issuing a PCN (by the way, do you live in Ruskin Ave/how come you didn't notice that the car was being removed)? Anyway, they have to justify removal. You have to pin them down in your reps i.e. what checks did the officer make before authorising removal? For example, as can be seen from the enclosed permit, valid permission to park was held - see point 1 regarding the unfortunate circumstances which led to it not being displayed. You cannot believe that the council's policy is to remove vehicles for which valid permits are held by residents of the borough simply because of a simple one-off failure to display, which could be nothing more than a permit becoming detached and falling inside a car. So, what checks did the officer make to see whether the vehicle was, for example, not displaying a permit because one was not held as opposed to simply not displaying a permit which was held for reasons unknown. What checks would the council have expected the officer to have made in the circumstances?

You'll end up at adjudication anyway, what you want to be able to show is that because insufficient checks were made the officer was not acting within the delegated authority of the council's policy and that consequently removal was unlawful.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:35
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (arif19 @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 07:37) *
i did actually renew my permit and it started from the 05/06 of Jan 2019... but not aware of any rule that it wasnt necessary to display it? is that the case?



5 or 6 of Jan this month, before contravention?

Go look at what exactly you renewed - you were send a new paper permit or what?

Neil is suggesting it could be a virtual permit.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 10:31
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:01) *
IMO, there are two sepatate aspects here:
1. The issuing of a PCN;
2. The removal.

As regards 1, the burden of justification falls on YOU. This was your fault in the eyes of the law: you parked the car and left it without checking that you were complying with the conditions of use of the permit. (by the way, how was this normally displayed e.g. directly on to the windscreen, sitting in a holder etc?)

But as regards 2, the burden of justification falls on the council. Why did they remove your car so soon after issuing a PCN (by the way, do you live in Ruskin Ave/how come you didn't notice that the car was being removed)? Anyway, they have to justify removal. You have to pin them down in your reps i.e. what checks did the officer make before authorising removal? For example, as can be seen from the enclosed permit, valid permission to park was held - see point 1 regarding the unfortunate circumstances which led to it not being displayed. You cannot believe that the council's policy is to remove vehicles for which valid permits are held by residents of the borough simply because of a simple one-off failure to display, which could be nothing more than a permit becoming detached and falling inside a car. So, what checks did the officer make to see whether the vehicle was, for example, not displaying a permit because one was not held as opposed to simply not displaying a permit which was held for reasons unknown. What checks would the council have expected the officer to have made in the circumstances?

You'll end up at adjudication anyway, what you want to be able to show is that because insufficient checks were made the officer was not acting within the delegated authority of the council's policy and that consequently removal was unlawful.



.;
Yes i know pretty much they will pin me on the issuing of the PCN as the permit was not on display. The permit is normally stuck to the windscreen, but now the garage has removed it, it wont stick back on, and i'll probably need to cellotape it or something, once i get the car back from a private garage.
Nope i don't live on Ruskin Ave, live on Essex Road, but my R zone permit allows me to park in a few streets, and there weren't any places to park on Essex Road, so parked in Ruskin Ave, so couldn't see the ticket, or them taking my car away


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:35) *
QUOTE (arif19 @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 07:37) *
i did actually renew my permit and it started from the 05/06 of Jan 2019... but not aware of any rule that it wasnt necessary to display it? is that the case?



5 or 6 of Jan this month, before contravention?

Go look at what exactly you renewed - you were send a new paper permit or what?

Neil is suggesting it could be a virtual permit.



Yes 5-6th of Jan this month, so yes around 11 days before the contravention, there was no option to request a virtual permit, simply got a letter in Dec telling me i need to renew my permit and i did so online, and they sent me it towards the end of Dec 2018, but as my old was was to expire around 5-6th Jan, thats what it states on the new permit
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 14:23
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



Hi All,

this is what i'm thinking of writing in my appeal, please advise if this is ok:

I would like to appeal against the PCN and the towing of my vehicle

I acknowledge that the permit was not displayed, but I was recently involved in a hit and run and the insurance company arranged for my vehicle to be collected for repair. On the 17th of Jan 2019 10.15am I received the vehicle back from the garage, please see paper work attached, unbeknown to me, when the car was collected from my home address (08/01/19) the person collecting my vehicle had removed my resident parking permit from my car, I am not sure why he did this, the permit was handed over to a family member at the time, but I was not aware of this, I only realised the permit was not on display after the car was towed away and I started to go through all the things which were removed by the garage driver collecting my vehicle and I found the permit. As I hold a valid resident permit, you could understand, and perhaps forgive, the issuing of a PCN but why did the on-board CEO not carry out additional checks on the VRM before authorising removal, after all it cannot be the council's policy to remove a resident's car simply because a permit is not displayed, can it?
I cannot believe that the council's policy is to remove vehicles for which valid permits are held by residents of the borough simply because of a simple one-off failure to display, which could be nothing more than a permit becoming detached and falling inside a car.
What checks did the officer make to see whether the vehicle was, for example, not displaying a permit because one was not held as opposed to simply not displaying a permit which was held for reasons unknown.
What checks would the council have expected the officer to have made in the circumstances?

At the time of parking my vehicle in the resident bay zone R, there were ample spaces available. I have been a Newham resident for over 25 years and have held a permit for the duration of when the resident parking permits were introduced by Newham and feel this is disproportionate tow for a contravention not of highest priority.

I hope you can cancel both the PCN and the towing charges and refund the £265

Thank You
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:51
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



HI

Not sure if anyone is still reading this post
But i got a response from Newham and they have declined my request to cancel the tow and PCN
They have said i can appeal to the London tribunals..... does anyone have any guidance on what i should state in the appeal please?

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:53
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,735
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (arif19 @ Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:51) *
HI

Not sure if anyone is still reading this post
But i got a response from Newham and they have declined my request to cancel the tow and PCN
They have said i can appeal to the London tribunals..... does anyone have any guidance on what i should state in the appeal please?

Thanks


Post up your appeal (if different to your post above) and their rejection.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 11:09
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:53) *
QUOTE (arif19 @ Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:51) *
HI

Not sure if anyone is still reading this post
But i got a response from Newham and they have declined my request to cancel the tow and PCN
They have said i can appeal to the London tribunals..... does anyone have any guidance on what i should state in the appeal please?

Thanks


Post up your appeal (if different to your post above) and their rejection.



I dont really know what else i can state in the appeal other than what i already have sent to Newham

Can't seem to attach the rejection letter, how do i remove the original attachments so i can upload this?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 11:13
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,308
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
Can't seem to attach the rejection letter, how do i remove the original attachments so i can upload this?



Try this:

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr (where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow (click on it) for sharing), https://imgbb.com/ (highly recommended by Stamfordman) and imgur, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 12:39
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



Thanks see attached:
https://ibb.co/vmwB2nh
https://ibb.co/NykQ77t
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 14:02
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



Hi

any suggestions?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 09:10
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



presume no one is reading this?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 10:45
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



You have nothing to lose by appealing to the tribunal so register the appeal now and say details to come.

Not read all teh rejection but did you ask them about the proportionality of the tow.

Also Neil's point about virtual permit - were you not offered one?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
arif19
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 15:09
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 4 Oct 2016
Member No.: 87,529



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 10:45) *
You have nothing to lose by appealing to the tribunal so register the appeal now and say details to come.

Not read all teh rejection but did you ask them about the proportionality of the tow.

Also Neil's point about virtual permit - were you not offered one?



HI
Yes i will be appealing but wanted to know what else i can mention in the appeal on top of what i already did when i wrote to Newham.
They claimed they can tow away the vehicle after 30 mins of issuing a PCN. i can't find if i read they dont tow away resident vehicles!

No they dont have anything on there website about having virtual permits and i was not offered it either.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 15:30
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I don't know what else to say.

Apart from the appeal, personally I would write to the council, councillors and local press about this because Newham are simply preying on their own residents. They could easily have checked if you had a valid permit before towing. They are supposed to be working for you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 07:42
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here