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Council claims I returned to same bay too soon.
Vizard
post Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 16:34
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But I didn't.

Warwick Park, Tunbridge wells. I was parked somewhere else entirely at the time my vehicle was first "observed". I may or may not be able to prove that.

However they appear to be claiming I left a space and returned to it, as illustrated by my tyre valve positions, which had moved. I have no idea how they came to this conclusion, but they have. I absolutely did not leave and return to the space.

Ticket Front

Ticket rear

Blurb ref valve positions

Diagram of valve positions

Any advice appreciated please.

I first appealed saying that I hadn't returned to the same bay within too short a time. They replied with a photo of the parking restriction plate Plate

and the following comment:



Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

There is a sign where you parked which says that, after leaving, you must not return within a certain length of time to the bay, or bays, covered by the sign. You were issued a PCN for returning too soon. Please see the photo below.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) recorded your tyre-valve positions and the time at 09:04; the CEO returned at 11:19, when the period you were allowed to park for had run out, and re-checked your tyre-valve positions, they had changed, meaning that your vehicle had left, but had returned within the four hour restriction.

We have liaised with the Enforcement Supervisor who has investigated your case and is satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online at www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn by following the payment links.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card.
• by post Please make your cheque or postal order payable to 'Tunbridge Wells Borough Council', write your PCN number (see above) on the back, then send it to Parking Services. Please do not send cash through the post.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order.

Yours sincerely



So I replied saying, "presumably take a photo at the start and end of the observation period then, may I see them please?

They replied.

Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that we do not take photographs of vehicle tyres. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer has made a note of the valve positions when the vehicle was first observed and then again when they returned to that area. When a vehicle is first observed in a time waiting bay, the vehicle details are entered onto a handheld computer. This would include the valve positions. When the CEO returns to that area after the time waiting period is up, they would again enter the details of the vehicles parked along with the valve positions. If there was a change in the valve positions then the handheld would automatically issue a ticket.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)




I said, okay please send me a time stamped record of the valve positions and they replied:

Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: k

Thank you for writing to us again.

We have carefully reconsidered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please see below for details.

The first log is timed at 09:04 the Penalty was not issued until 11:19. The restriction states 'parking 2 hours no return within 4 hours' had you not have left (as our records show) you would have needed to vacate the bay by 11:04 as the maximum period is 2 hours.




Along with the two images I posted.

This post has been edited by Vizard: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 17:56
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post Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 16:34
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Vizard
post Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 08:34
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 01:50) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 7 Mar 2017 - 23:10) *
what is the location? Warwick Park! What the hell does this mean?


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1262059,0...3312!8i6656

Hotel behind left shoulder camera view.

QUOTE (Vizard @ Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 21:45) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 21:37) *
Don't pay yet
How far away is parking area in question from hotel ?


The parking area is 3m from the hotel, the parking bay about 80m.

?
That's not exactly somewhere else? I'm confused.


You know what, it's no biggy really, I was parked in the private car park of the church hall next to the hotel (at least I think it's a church hall). I shouldn't have been there, but I was. I didn't move from there until about an hour after the first "observation" was taken.

There. You made me say it, and now Jesus will be angry with me.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 08:52
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This is not an 'area', it is a number of stand-alone parking places each of which appears to have the same but individual parking restrictions.

So, in which of these was the car when the PCN was served? One is only 2 cars' length and if your car was there then IMO an adjudicator would, in the face of your credible evidence, find as a fact that on the balance of probabilities the car was not moved away from the parking place and then returned to park right next to its so-called original position.

Tell the truth and shame the devil.

And are you the registered keeper of the vehicle?
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Vizard
post Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 09:22
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 08:52) *
This is not an 'area', it is a number of stand-alone parking places each of which appears to have the same but individual parking restrictions.

So, in which of these was the car when the PCN was served? One is only 2 cars' length and if your car was there then IMO an adjudicator would, in the face of your credible evidence, find as a fact that on the balance of probabilities the car was not moved away from the parking place and then returned to park right next to its so-called original position.

Tell the truth and shame the devil.

And are you the registered keeper of the vehicle?


You say it's a number of stand-alone spaces, but from memory the individual spaces are not marked out. There is just a parking margin marked out on the road either side. I also seem to recall that the "no return within X hours" encompasses pretty much the whole of that end of Tunbridge Wells.

When the FPN was issued I was parked probably about 200m from the hotel on the opposite side.



Yes I am the RK.



And the discount period runs out on 17 March.
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astralite
post Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 16:58
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Where is Regulation 3(2)b(ii) on the PCN?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

If its not there the PCN is invalid and unenforceable.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 17:29
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So
In a nutshell.
You stayed in the hotel and parked in an adjacent car park (though possibly could have fallen foul of the owners of that car park)
At the time the vehicle was first observed, you were still trying to check out but your keys (car keys?) locked in the safe.
Hotel will attest to that.
Following check out (around 9.30?) you moved the vehicle ?
To where ?
And if not in the parking place where the PCN was served, when did you park ?

The problem is proving against a machine that automatically issues PCNs if certain conditions are input and consideration that seems to be against "the machine is never wrong" but without thought of GIGO rule (garbage in, garbage out)

To win, you will be battling against the authority saying their CEO and machine cannot make mistakes.
But have some evidence that you would not have been parked earlier then 9.30 unless you parked there overnight.
If overnight, why would anyone park 200 metres from their hotel ?
If overnight, what time was the first patrol?
Enforcement starts at 8am so patrol time sweeps may be critical.
Your credibility will be key at adjudication.
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Vizard
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 13:34
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 17:29) *
So
In a nutshell.
You stayed in the hotel and parked in an adjacent car park (though possibly could have fallen foul of the owners of that car park)
At the time the vehicle was first observed, you were still trying to check out but your keys (car keys?) locked in the safe.
Hotel will attest to that.
Following check out (around 9.30?) you moved the vehicle ?
To where ?
And if not in the parking place where the PCN was served, when did you park ?

The problem is proving against a machine that automatically issues PCNs if certain conditions are input and consideration that seems to be against "the machine is never wrong" but without thought of GIGO rule (garbage in, garbage out)

To win, you will be battling against the authority saying their CEO and machine cannot make mistakes.
But have some evidence that you would not have been parked earlier then 9.30 unless you parked there overnight.
If overnight, why would anyone park 200 metres from their hotel ?
If overnight, what time was the first patrol?
Enforcement starts at 8am so patrol time sweeps may be critical.
Your credibility will be key at adjudication.


I agree, I don't fancy my chances when it's my word with some degree of support against the machine.

But is this an opportunity (thank you Astralite)?

Where is Regulation 3(2)b(ii) on the PCN?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

If its not there the PCN is invalid and unenforceable.

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baroudeur
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 14:21
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QUOTE (Vizard @ Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 10:22) *
You say it's a number of stand-alone spaces, but from memory the individual spaces are not marked out. There is just a parking margin marked out on the road either side. I also seem to recall that the "no return within X hours" encompasses pretty much the whole of that end of Tunbridge Wells.

When the FPN was issued I was parked probably about 200m from the hotel on the opposite side.

Yes I am the RK.

And the discount period runs out on 17 March.



Outside no 24 as shown on your link above "blurb valve positions" http://thumbsnap.com/GsfnwR9h

This is a 2/3 car bay.

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 14:22
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hcandersen
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 14:40
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OP, you misunderstand.

I referred to parking places, not spaces or bays. The parking place is the exterior marking, whether a parking place is sub-divided into individual bays is not relevant.

So, pl answer the question: where were you parked, refer to GSV if you have to? Each parking place has its own restriction, the fact that these might be the same is neither here nor there, they belong to and restrict activities within that parking place, not the side of the street or street or area, just that parking place.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 21:18
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astralite
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 16:20
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‘The Warwick Park Mystery ‘

Re DD’s analysis. Yes, and if an overnight stay, the hotel will presumably have a record of your vehicle registration number.

I don’t want to get your hopes up on Regulation 3(2)b(ii) which is about what should be on the PCN in respect of the process for representations. And it may also be necessary to look at the council’s website to see what’s on there. At this point the focus should be on trying to solve or resolve the issues about the alleged contravention if we can to enable you to make a credible challenge. So a resume of queries:

Your info
Timing: Did you stay overnight at the hotel or did you arrive in the morning?
Can you obtain a note from the hotel? Or, do you have any receipts?
Did someone recommend or ask you to move the car from the church hall car park?
When you moved the car from the church hall car park, where in Warwick Park did you park?
As hca says please refer us to a Google Street View if possible.
When was the other grey Rover parked near you in Warwick Park, when you parked or later?
I assume you personally collected your vehicle and when you did so you saw the PCN affixed to the car? Do you have a photo?
Basic: have you checked carefully the vehicle registration number on the main part of the PCN and the payment slip?

Council info and position
Personally, knowing little about the systems used, I don’t know how the council would show evidentially that the valve info and blurb relates to your vehicle but presumably it’s all part of a program on the handheld which enables the CEO to create one unique record identified by the vehicle registration number. Like DD I am surprised that the handheld just spews out a ticket automatically based on valve observations. An over-stay would seem easier…

I can only see one set of valve observations. Is there a second set which I have missed?
The council may have neatly sidestepped your request for photos saying they don’t take them of tyres. Have you been back to them to ask if there are any of the vehicle parked anywhere in Warwick Park?

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Hippocrates
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:36
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QUOTE (Vizard @ Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 17:29) *
So
In a nutshell.
You stayed in the hotel and parked in an adjacent car park (though possibly could have fallen foul of the owners of that car park)
At the time the vehicle was first observed, you were still trying to check out but your keys (car keys?) locked in the safe.
Hotel will attest to that.
Following check out (around 9.30?) you moved the vehicle ?
To where ?
And if not in the parking place where the PCN was served, when did you park ?

The problem is proving against a machine that automatically issues PCNs if certain conditions are input and consideration that seems to be against "the machine is never wrong" but without thought of GIGO rule (garbage in, garbage out)

To win, you will be battling against the authority saying their CEO and machine cannot make mistakes.
But have some evidence that you would not have been parked earlier then 9.30 unless you parked there overnight.
If overnight, why would anyone park 200 metres from their hotel ?
If overnight, what time was the first patrol?
Enforcement starts at 8am so patrol time sweeps may be critical.
Your credibility will be key at adjudication.


I agree, I don't fancy my chances when it's my word with some degree of support against the machine.

But is this an opportunity (thank you Astralite)?

Where is Regulation 3(2)b(ii) on the PCN?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

If its not there the PCN is invalid and unenforceable.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

By corollary, it fails Regulation 8(1)(b)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/8/made

Therefore, it is not a PCN.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:45


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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Hippocrates
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:51
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QUOTE (Vizard @ Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 16:34) *
But I didn't.

Warwick Park, Tunbridge wells. I was parked somewhere else entirely at the time my vehicle was first "observed". I may or may not be able to prove that.

However they appear to be claiming I left a space and returned to it, as illustrated by my tyre valve positions, which had moved. I have no idea how they came to this conclusion, but they have. I absolutely did not leave and return to the space.

Ticket Front

Ticket rear

Blurb ref valve positions

Diagram of valve positions

Any advice appreciated please.

I first appealed saying that I hadn't returned to the same bay within too short a time. They replied with a photo of the parking restriction plate Plate

and the following comment:



Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

There is a sign where you parked which says that, after leaving, you must not return within a certain length of time to the bay, or bays, covered by the sign. You were issued a PCN for returning too soon. Please see the photo below.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) recorded your tyre-valve positions and the time at 09:04; the CEO returned at 11:19, when the period you were allowed to park for had run out, and re-checked your tyre-valve positions, they had changed, meaning that your vehicle had left, but had returned within the four hour restriction.

We have liaised with the Enforcement Supervisor who has investigated your case and is satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online at www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn by following the payment links.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card.
• by post Please make your cheque or postal order payable to 'Tunbridge Wells Borough Council', write your PCN number (see above) on the back, then send it to Parking Services. Please do not send cash through the post.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order.

Yours sincerely



So I replied saying, "presumably take a photo at the start and end of the observation period then, may I see them please?

They replied.

Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that we do not take photographs of vehicle tyres. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer has made a note of the valve positions when the vehicle was first observed and then again when they returned to that area. When a vehicle is first observed in a time waiting bay, the vehicle details are entered onto a handheld computer. This would include the valve positions. When the CEO returns to that area after the time waiting period is up, they would again enter the details of the vehicles parked along with the valve positions. If there was a change in the valve positions then the handheld would automatically issue a ticket.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)




I said, okay please send me a time stamped record of the valve positions and they replied:

Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: k

Thank you for writing to us again.

We have carefully reconsidered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please see below for details.

The first log is timed at 09:04 the Penalty was not issued until 11:19. The restriction states 'parking 2 hours no return within 4 hours' had you not have left (as our records show) you would have needed to vacate the bay by 11:04 as the maximum period is 2 hours.




Along with the two images I posted.


Procedural improprieties: within adds an extra day and the other issue fetters their discretion. So, thus far, three procedural improprieties including the missing Regulation 3(2)(b)(ii).

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:53


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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astralite
post Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 23:59
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Hippo has highlighted procedural points and noted Regulation 3(2)b(ii) which could be included in an appeal.

I hope you can offer answers to the queries in my post above. After writing that I looked again and compared the information on the ‘diagram of valve positions’ with information in the ‘blurb’ (presumably the CEO’s notes), and the time on the PCN. The result is:

First observation time: 09.04 Valve position: F5 R8
Second/CEO notes 11.22.26 Valve positions: F4 R3 and F5 R8
PCN issued time: 11.19

This seems to indicate:
a. on the first observation only the tyres on one side of the vehicle were checked but on the second both sides were checked
b. if so, the councils’ own evidence strongly suggests that the vehicle had not moved
c. the PCN was issued before a note was made of the second observation

It may be the case that the council also have another, earlier timed input record of the second observation. That should be the case because in their second reply they told you:

“… When a vehicle is first observed in a time waiting bay, the vehicle details are entered onto a handheld computer. This would include the valve positions. When the CEO returns to that area after the time waiting period is up, they would again enter the details of the vehicles parked along with the valve positions. If there was a change in the valve positions then the handheld would automatically issue a ticket.”

I should add that perhaps an alternative explanation would be that only one side was checked on each occasion but then the council would have to say which side and show it was the same side.

So apart from dealing with our queries (!) I think the next step is for you to write to the council again asking for a full copy of the CEO’s notes and any further documentation they may hold relating to the issue of the PCN and any photographs taken of your vehicle in Warwick Park. Also please check on their website for any photos. They may not reply before you have to draft to meet the 17 March deadline but with a bit more information it should be possible to put forward a positive challenge.

This post has been edited by astralite: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 - 00:24
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Vizard
post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 17:57
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QUOTE (astralite @ Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 16:20) *
‘The Warwick Park Mystery ‘

Re DD’s analysis. Yes, and if an overnight stay, the hotel will presumably have a record of your vehicle registration number.

I don’t want to get your hopes up on Regulation 3(2)b(ii) which is about what should be on the PCN in respect of the process for representations. And it may also be necessary to look at the council’s website to see what’s on there. At this point the focus should be on trying to solve or resolve the issues about the alleged contravention if we can to enable you to make a credible challenge. So a resume of queries:

Your info
Timing: Did you stay overnight at the hotel or did you arrive in the morning?
Can you obtain a note from the hotel? Or, do you have any receipts?
Did someone recommend or ask you to move the car from the church hall car park?
When you moved the car from the church hall car park, where in Warwick Park did you park?
As hca says please refer us to a Google Street View if possible.
When was the other grey Rover parked near you in Warwick Park, when you parked or later?
I assume you personally collected your vehicle and when you did so you saw the PCN affixed to the car? Do you have a photo?
Basic: have you checked carefully the vehicle registration number on the main part of the PCN and the payment slip?

Council info and position
Personally, knowing little about the systems used, I don’t know how the council would show evidentially that the valve info and blurb relates to your vehicle but presumably it’s all part of a program on the handheld which enables the CEO to create one unique record identified by the vehicle registration number. Like DD I am surprised that the handheld just spews out a ticket automatically based on valve observations. An over-stay would seem easier…

I can only see one set of valve observations. Is there a second set which I have missed?
The council may have neatly sidestepped your request for photos saying they don’t take them of tyres. Have you been back to them to ask if there are any of the vehicle parked anywhere in Warwick Park?


Answers in CAPS FOR CLARITY, I AM NOT SHOUTING:

Timing: Did you stay overnight at the hotel or did you arrive in the morning? OVERNIGHT
Can you obtain a note from the hotel? Or, do you have any receipts? YES I HAVE A RECEIPT, BUT THEY HAVE NO CAR PARK SO I AM NOT SURE IF THAT WILL HELP
Did someone recommend or ask you to move the car from the church hall car park? NO.
When you moved the car from the church hall car park, where in Warwick Park did you park? ABOUT 150-200 M AWAY ON THE RIGHT GOING UPHILL SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE https://goo.gl/maps/y9ULjXPhnBx
As hca says please refer us to a Google Street View if possible.
When was the other grey Rover parked near you in Warwick Park, when you parked or later? I DON'T RECALL. YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE ABOVE STREET VIEW I THINK. I AM GUESSING HE IS RESIDENT THERE.
I assume you personally collected your vehicle and when you did so you saw the PCN affixed to the car? Do you have a photo? NO. I USUALLY FIND THAT COUNCILS ARE KIND ENOUGH TO TAKE THEM FOR ME.
Basic: have you checked carefully the vehicle registration number on the main part of the PCN and the payment slip? YES

Council info and position
Personally, knowing little about the systems used, I don’t know how the council would show evidentially that the valve info and blurb relates to your vehicle but presumably it’s all part of a program on the handheld which enables the CEO to create one unique record identified by the vehicle registration number. Like DD I am surprised that the handheld just spews out a ticket automatically based on valve observations. An over-stay would seem easier…

I can only see one set of valve observations. Is there a second set which I have missed? NO, YOU'VE SEEN EVERYTHING I HAVE.
The council may have neatly sidestepped your request for photos saying they don’t take them of tyres. Have you been back to them to ask if there are any of the vehicle parked anywhere in Warwick Park?

This post has been edited by Vizard: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 17:59
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Vizard
post Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 18:10
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I have emailed the council asking for the printout of the second set of valve positions and any photos they may have.
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Vizard
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 13:43
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OK so no further communication from the council and tomorrow is the last day for a discount.

What is the collective view? Pay up or fight on? Right now I am tempted to pay because I think it will be me vs machine and I cannot provide concrete evidence that I was not there.

Does anyone know, by the way, what level of proof the council needs to provide? Is it beyond reasonable doubt, balance of probabilities or what?
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astralite
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:22
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Thanks for the info you provided in your first post on 13 March.
Maybe also be worth considering phoning the council now to ask them to put the PCN on hold at the discounted rate until they have answered your e-mail provided the docs. If you do keep a record.
Will post later on your queries today - in the meantime others might comment.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:31
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(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word must makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN



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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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baroudeur
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 17:26
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Surely the place where the car was parked in Warwick Park is identified in the OP's link 'Blurb ref valve positions'?

- Outside 24.

HERE

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 17:29
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Vizard
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 18:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:31) *
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word must makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN


Thank you.

Everyone agree with this? The adjudicator must cancel the ticket?
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Hippocrates
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 20:29
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QUOTE (Vizard @ Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:31) *
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word must makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN


Thank you.

Everyone agree with this? The adjudicator must cancel the ticket?


Yes, I do. But I am not everyone! Royal Tunbridge Wells. Homeopathic Hospital for drafter of PCN.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 20:30


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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