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PCN - Redbridge, parked in restricted ST, Parking fine for parking on school marking
AcerApple
post Tue, 20 Feb 2024 - 21:54
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Hi All

I was recently driving in the Redbridge borough and had to go into one of the shops nearby. I couldn't find parking except outside a school. I noticed that there were school markings on the road (see pictures and street view) ordinarily I wouldn't park here but the accompanying sign there seemed to suggest that it was a restricted zone at specific times - in this case the sign suggested that parking between 8AM - 9:30AM and then 2PM and 4PM was prohibited but was allowed beyond these times. It was around 4:30 PM and so I decided to park there. Upon my return I saw a PCN on my vehicle.

So My first question is was I wrong to park here? Did I interpret the sign incorrectly? If not then how should I proceed with this PCN - do I have grounds to challenge it?

As you will note on the PCN the time of issue was 16:42.

PCN Front: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBruUuGLRvpUCM_jouf

PCN Back: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBruUw0yzvSTltuTHWa

Sign: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBruUgklRk...AHvZP8?e=8Ob18C

Car 1: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBruUYmvJT...zosaJj?e=Gs2JYd

Car 2: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBruUc_w4q...FHMOMV?e=Ks4HZr

Street view: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBruUl0TaM...I9xmB7?e=2k1soW

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xeGEiWFRcgnMaDqG6

Thanks for reading, appreciate any input and guidance from you guys.

This post has been edited by AcerApple: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 - 11:39
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post Tue, 20 Feb 2024 - 21:54
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AcerApple
post Mon, 4 Mar 2024 - 23:30
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Also in addition to the above, if this issue progressed to the courts are there any costs I need to be aware of?
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Incandescent
post Tue, 5 Mar 2024 - 00:55
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QUOTE (AcerApple @ Mon, 4 Mar 2024 - 23:30) *
Also in addition to the above, if this issue progressed to the courts are there any costs I need to be aware of?

There is no court involvement, the final place is the adjudicators, in your case, London Tribunals. Once the discount period has gone, the penalty remains the same right up to adjudication. There are no additional costs, the maximum risk is the PCN penalty.
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astralite
post Tue, 5 Mar 2024 - 10:59
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Redbridge playing hard ball over the discount period and they have disregarded your request for an explanation.
You need to wait for the Notice to Owner which as far as I know should be issued within 28 days. Then you make a formal challenge.
Here is a link to the London Tribunals website which explains the ‘enforcement process’ for parking tickets.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process
Here the link outlining the Appeal process, should it get that far.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained

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AcerApple
post Tue, 2 Apr 2024 - 11:49
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QUOTE (astralite @ Tue, 5 Mar 2024 - 10:59) *
Redbridge playing hard ball over the discount period and they have disregarded your request for an explanation.
You need to wait for the Notice to Owner which as far as I know should be issued within 28 days. Then you make a formal challenge.
Here is a link to the London Tribunals website which explains the ‘enforcement process’ for parking tickets.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process
Here the link outlining the Appeal process, should it get that far.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained


Hi All

So I have now received the notice to owner. In terms of next steps, I guess I need to make a formal challenge now by following the steps in the above links? I'm a little concerned regarding the exact amount of work required here. Is this something I am able to do on my own, seems to be a lengthy process with different options I need to choose from like a postal or personal appeal.

Also as a general point (I guess it would be hard to quantify) but what are my chances of success if I go through with this formal challenge? They did disregard my request for offering an explanation. If I was to appeal on similar grounds will they be more amenable this time round?

Notice to owner Page 1: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBrui9k93c...j5Aku7?e=1ZOBUx

Notice to owner Page 2: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBrujNTbiX...vDqki_?e=TStWCd

Notice to owner Page 3: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBrujQccEO...pJR3BQ?e=jytZM1

Notice to owner Page 4: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiRPBEFTboBrujW28fH...BBEZGf?e=azouHb

thanks for all the help.

This post has been edited by AcerApple: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 12:00
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John U.K.
post Tue, 2 Apr 2024 - 14:31
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QUOTE
So I have now received the notice to owner


Only one side to the NtO?
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AcerApple
post Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 12:02
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Tue, 2 Apr 2024 - 14:31) *
QUOTE
So I have now received the notice to owner


Only one side to the NtO?


Hi sorry Yes, have just updated the above post with all the pages of the NTO.
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astralite
post Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 12:39
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At this stage you are dealing with the Notice to Owner. There is no more work beyond finalising a representation (what you said before plus any other points which may become apparent) before submitting it to the council. It would be worth checking all the documents to see if there are any errors which should be included in your representation at this stage. Leave a short while for other members to look at this aspect.

Generally representations at this point receive more attention from the council. If they accept, good, and that will be the end of the matter. If not they have to issue a Notice of Rejection which gives you the right to appeal to the London Adjudicators. If they have still disregarded your request for an explanation that may be an additional ground, ‘failure to consider’ to include in an Appeal.

It is at the Appeal stage you need to decide whether to have postal or personal appeal. We almost always recommend a personal appeal. That can be done by telephone as well as in person.

It is very important that you submit representations in response to the Notice to Owner in time. You have nothing to lose, you could win, and I would advise to keep going in this case.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 14:17
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Submitting reps against the Notice to Owner is pretty straightforward. In your case, you just re-present your informal challenge. As regards London Tribunals, there is no need to attend their offices, because most appeals are done over the telephone nowadays. The thing to avoid is a papers-based adjudication, because if the adjudicator needs clarification on an aspect of your appeal, you're not there to answer. Key thing is that the penalty cannot increase, and there are no additional costs.
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AcerApple
post Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 14:46
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Ok great, that makes sense. The below is what I used in the appeal for the first stage. Is there anything I should add further to this? I feel that it is fairly comprehensive.

Full text I submitted in the previous appeal:


"On 8th February 2014 I parked on the entrance markings outside Rutland Road at a time when these were not in effect – I had parked in compliance with the provisions of a directly adjacent, prominent sign (see attached picture of the sign in question)

I saw the yellow line indicating no waiting but couldn't find a traffic sign giving the restricted times, I therefore assumed they were combined with those which applied to the entrance markings.

I was surprised at receiving the PCN and puzzled as to what I did wrong. I therefore looked into the matter and found useful information in the Traffic Signs Manual.

While the council is apparently not required by law to place a 'no waiting' traffic sign at the location, the manual makes it clear that this is best practice and should be done, please revert to the authoritative ‘Traffic Signs Manual’ or TSM, Specifically Chapter 3 13.28.7 of the said document.

According to this, where the entrance markings are used on a road that is subject to a prohibition of waiting 'this should be independently signed when it applies during times when the prohibition of stopping does not'.

With this in mind, had the council adopted this practice then the contravention would have been prevented.

While I was unaware that waiting and stopping prohibitions could co-exist at the same location, the same cannot be said of the council who should have been aware of the government's position on this matter (the Traffic Signs Manual being a publication authorised by the Department for Transport).

With the above facts stated, I therefore expect that this PCN kindly be retracted. Should you reject my challenge of this PCN, then I expect an explanation as to why Redbridge Council has decided to not mark this prohibition in accordance with the TSM."
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Schofeldt
post Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 14:58
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Re submit what you wrote plus this:

I require you to consider my informal challenge against the Notice to Owner and the following:

I challenge this PCN as follows:

The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN and NtO.

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 14:59


--------------------
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It's all in the wrist.
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AcerApple
post Fri, 5 Apr 2024 - 11:12
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QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Wed, 3 Apr 2024 - 14:58) *
Re submit what you wrote plus this:

I require you to consider my informal challenge against the Notice to Owner and the following:

I challenge this PCN as follows:

The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN and NtO.


thanks, does the below make sense, I've added your wording to the bottom:

"I require you to consider my informal challenge against the Notice to Owner & PCN:

On 8th February 2014 I parked on the entrance markings outside Rutland Road at a time when these were not in effect – I had parked in compliance with the provisions of a directly adjacent, prominent sign (see attached picture of the sign in question)

I saw the yellow line indicating no waiting but couldn't find a traffic sign giving the restricted times, I therefore assumed they were combined with those which applied to the entrance markings.

I was surprised at receiving the PCN and puzzled as to what I did wrong. I therefore looked into the matter and found useful information in the Traffic Signs Manual.

While the council is apparently not required by law to place a 'no waiting' traffic sign at the location, the manual makes it clear that this is best practice and should be done, please revert to the authoritative ‘Traffic Signs Manual’ or TSM, Specifically Chapter 3 13.28.7 of the said document.

According to this, where the entrance markings are used on a road that is subject to a prohibition of waiting 'this should be independently signed when it applies during times when the prohibition of stopping does not'.

With this in mind, had the council adopted this practice then the contravention would have been prevented.

While I was unaware that waiting and stopping prohibitions could co-exist at the same location, the same cannot be said of the council who should have been aware of the government's position on this matter (the Traffic Signs Manual being a publication authorised by the Department for Transport).

With the above facts stated, I therefore expect that this PCN kindly be retracted. Should you reject my challenge of this PCN, then I expect an explanation as to why Redbridge Council has decided to not mark this prohibition in accordance with the TSM

In addition, Please note the following about the PCN that was issued:

The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2

(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN and Notice to owner."


This post has been edited by AcerApple: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 - 11:16
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astralite
post Sun, 7 Apr 2024 - 09:30
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Amend the introduction to read:
I require you to consider my informal challenge against the Notice to Owner & PCN. For ease of reference here is a copy of my informal challenge:
“ On 8th February 2014 I parked (etc) …


Also remove the underlining of the text recommended by Schofeldt.
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AcerApple
post Mon, 8 Apr 2024 - 12:39
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Thanks all, I've submitted the representation as per the above wordings. Will be interesting to see how they respond to this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your representation has been received
Your representation was submitted on Mon 08/04/2024 13:36.
Your case reference number is: TF00474065.

What happens now
Your case will now be placed on hold and will not progress while the matter is under review, we will respond in writing within 56 days.

If your representation is successful the PCN will be cancelled and no further action will be necessary.

If your representation is unsuccessful you will be sent a letter known as a Notice of Rejection, in which we will advise you of the options available. You will be given the option to either pay the charge at the amount it was when your representation was made. Or you will be able to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator (London Tribunals), who will review the matter and make a decision that is binding on both parties. Please note any appeal will be at the full charge of the PCN, the discount amount will not apply at this stage.

Please note once a Notice of Rejection has been issued the matter cannot be disputed again with the Council, you will need to decide whether you wish to pay the charge and settle the matter, or raise an appeal with London Tribunals. We will provide details of how to make an appeal, including a form and a verification code to enable you to appeal online.
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