PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Contravention code 26, How can they prove I was more than 50cm from the kerb
PowerToThePeople
post Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 22:43
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



Hi all,

This is my first post, so please excuse if i'm not following protocol by not giving enough info / relevant info. So in a nutshell, I was issued a PCN, at just after midnight, for parking in a spot where I and other locals have been parking over the past 2 years. The alleged contravention was:
26- PARKED IN A SPECIAL ENFORCEMENT AREA MORE THAN 50cm FROM THE EDGE OF THE CARRIAGEWAY AND NOT WITHIN A DESIGNATED PARKING PLACE.

Please see attached pics.

Additional info: The only signs on the road are in relation to permit parking from 9:30am - 5:30pm.

So regarding this, I have the following questions, and would greatly appreciate some answers / guidance / suggestions.

1. Based on the description assigned to code 26, I'm not entirely sure what i'm being penalised for...is it for being 50cm away from the carriageway? Or being in a special enforcement area (what is a special enforcement area)? I know i'm parked on a single yellow line, but there are no signs in the area in relation the restriction times for the yellow line.

2. If it's for the parking more than 50cm's away, can where I was parked be deemed a carriageway? And how can they conclusively prove, based on the pics taken, that I was more than 50cm away from the carriageway /kerb?


In conclusion, do I have a strong case to get this PCN dismissed?


Thanks,
PowerToThePeople

P.S. Could only upload 1 pic due to the file size restriction for uploading images.

This post has been edited by PowerToThePeople: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 07:42
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 22:43
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Mr Mustard
post Mon, 2 Sep 2019 - 22:52
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,021
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,932



We always like to see the PCN please, just cover up the registration.

This does not look like a contravention to me, the entire car has to be more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway. I would simply deny the contravention on line.

The whole of Greater London is a special enforcement area.


--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 07:45
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



Thank you, Mr Mustard.

I've added a pic of the PCN and a couple of more images of the alleged contravention.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 09:14
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,049
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, you know where you were, we don't.

Spencer Road doesn't help, I'm afraid.

I doubt whether the CEO's photos help much either. So what do we want?

To advise you to fight on because the photos do not conclusively show where you parked but which, once an adj gets a feel for the context and in light of the CEO's notes, would lead to them deducing that on the balance of probabilities you were parked as alleged and you(the owner) would be £130 out of pocket, or

To know exactly where you were parked and to structure your reps and our advice in this context?

What you claim to have done and your views as to others parking without penalty will not fly because you have no evidence and as regards this type of contravention you would need evidence, not anecdote, hearsay, received wisdom.

So, Google Street View please, possibly aided by a hand-written drawing - I suspect of the cul-de-sac end, but let's see.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Mustard
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 09:25
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,021
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,932



Spencer Road, Isleworth has led me to believe it is here (3 windows and a grating in the corner)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4787499,-...6384!8i8192

OP will confirm I expect.

The traffic warden has got it wrong. It doesn't matter if some of your car is a metre from the kerb, if your front bumper isn't there is no contravention.

I would be happy to take PCNs like this one to the tribunal every week, my bottom would hardly be on the chair before the adjudicator allowed the Appeal (partly because they usually read my skeleton arguments before I get into the room).


--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 09:32
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 10:25) *
Spencer Road, Isleworth has led me to believe it is here (3 windows and a grating in the corner)

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4787499,-...6384!8i8192

OP will confirm I expect.

The traffic warden has got it wrong. It doesn't matter if some of your car is a metre from the kerb, if your front bumper isn't there is no contravention.

I would be happy to take PCNs like this one to the tribunal every week, my bottom would hardly be on the chair before the adjudicator allowed the Appeal (partly because they usually read my skeleton arguments before I get into the room).


+1


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 09:37
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



Thanks hcandersen

Mr Mustard...you're correct...that's exactly where the car was parked, in that empty space, with the single yellow line.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 09:55
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,049
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



'In that empty space'! There are several.

Why not draw a diagram so we are absolutely clear about where you were?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 10:24
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



@hcandersen Sorry, I'm out at the moment and don't have paper and pen at hand.

For the mean time, to make it more clear, when you tap the google street view link that Mr Mustard kindly provided, the exact location it takes you, there's a grey car in the bay on the left. To the right of that car is an empty space, with a single yellow line....and thats where my car was parked. Combined with the attached pics, I'm hoping its clearer for you now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Tue, 3 Sep 2019 - 19:05
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



@hcandersen Please see the attachments, I've marked on a Google street view image where the car was parked.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 09:45
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



So....what should my line of defence be for this PCN then?

1. That not all parts of the car were 50cm away from the carriageway?
2. Or that I believe the pictures don't show conclusively that my any part of my car was more than 50cm away from the carriageway?

Would be grateful for some opinions / suggestions.

Thanks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Mustard
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 09:47
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,021
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,932



Number 1. Keep it simple.

Hope that someone who knows the law considers your challenge but many valid challenges get rejected at this stage because councils love the revenue stream. I would be 99% confident of winning at the tribunal (nothing is ever 100% certain even when I am).


--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 14:33
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,049
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



I refer the authority to the CEO's photos and my marked photo indicating where I was parked.

I also refer the authority to the definition of the contravention:

Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50cm from the edge of a carriageway and not within a designated
parking space.


The meaning is clear: the offence is of parking more than 0.5 metres away from the edge of the carriageway, unless wholly within a designated parking place. It is not, as some within your authority appear to believe, that a vehicle can be in contravention irrespective of how far it is from the edge of the carriageway solely based on whether it is within a parking place.

The test for this contravention is in two parts:

Is any part of the vehicle within 50cm of the edge of the carriageway?

If yes, then this contravention cannot occur.

If no, then was the vehicle wholly within a designated parking place? If no, then the contravention is established.

The issue of 'designated parking place' ONLY has to be considered if no part of a vehicle is within 50cm of the edge of the carriageway.

As regards what constitutes 'edge of the carriageway', I refer the authority to Item 2 in the Part 4 Sign Table in Schedule 7 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regs 2016 which shows that a yellow line must be placed at the 'Edge of the carriageway'.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

You will see from my photo - which clearly shows the edge of the carriageway because this is where the council have correctly placed the yellow line - that the vast majority of my vehicle was within 50cm and that a contravention could not and did not occur. Whether where I was parked is a parking place or not is not only not the determinant factor, it is not a factor at all.

I have set out the legal position for you and therefore if you continue to reject my representations such actions must be considered vexatious.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Wed, 4 Sep 2019 - 22:22
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



@hcandersen - Thank you greatly for that....much appreciated biggrin.gif . Fingers crossed they accept the logic presented.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 22:41
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



@hcandersen Update: Sadly, my appeal has been rejected. From my understanding of their reply, it seems like they're implying I had to be within the marked bays, and that it wasn't about me be being more than 50cm from the kerb where I was parked (on the single yellow).

I've attached their reply.

Thanks,
PowerToThePeople
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Mustard
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 22:46
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,021
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,932



Don’t be disheartened, this sort of Rejection is normal. It is a template which does not even pretend to look at the facts.

The council should not be writing about bays as you were not in one.

Just sit and await the Notice to Owner.


--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 08:53
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Plus 1.

The bones of your case are simple.... the vehicle is within 50cm of a kerb, CEO photos show this.

I cannot see you losing this unless you muck up, miss deadlines or the like.

Is the vehicle's V5c (registration doc) up to date with correct address ???
If in doubt check it now.
That is where the NTO will be sent.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 10:04
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,049
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, do you live where the car is registered?

If not, don't worry.

I would not wait for the NTO, I get so incensed about the abuse of power exhibited here that I would write back now. This has nothing to do with parking: this is manifest stupidity; lack of training and inadequate management oversight. An authority should be hauled up by the b***s for this type of action.

I would write to Head of Parking.

Dear Sir,
PCN **********

I refer to the above, my challenge and your response (see enclosures).

I offer you this opportunity to cancel the PCN as clearly neither the contravention given in the PCN nor the non-existent contravention to which your 'Correspondence Team' refer occurred.

Should you decline then, as the owner, I shall seek costs at adjudication. In addition and based upon your written assurance that whoever composed and signed-off the letter and the CEO concerned would be shown the error of their ways, I shall withhold any formal complaint, otherwise I shall raise the matter formally through your management channels as the imposition of this penalty and your initial response betray a complete lack of knowledge of the prevailing legislation which, as the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance makes clear, is a pre-requisite for the authority.

***** see below
Hugs


*** and if there's any doubt about your contact address, put it here. DVLA details are superseded if you give the authority clear instructions regarding any alternative which they should use.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 11:17
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



No argument with that either
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PowerToThePeople
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 23:32
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 2 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,545



Thanks for the replies people.

@hcandersen - No, my car is not registered at the address / location the contravention supposedly occurred....will this be a problem? I'm between 2 addresses at the moment (due to work), but the other address is where my car is registered.

Also, when you say write to the head of parking, any idea where I can find that contact information? The only contact email I can seem to find is hounslow.challenges@serco.com. Would it be that, or some other email address for a particular person or department?

Thanks,
PowerToThePeople
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 09:10
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here