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[NIP Wizard] NIP re Crossing Stop Line at Red Light
Speckle
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 14:26
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2018
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A41 Colne Way, junction with Westlea Avenue, Southeast-bound, Watford, Hertfordshire, United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - N/A
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving along the A41 towards the traffic lights. I thought I would get through the traffic lights before they changed to red. However, I misjudged my timing and stopped sharply just beyond the stop line but before crossing the junction. I was not obstructing the flow of traffic coming across the junction and there was no yellow grid box on the junction. I remained stationary in this position until the lights changed to green, when I then crossed the junction and continued my journey. I currently have no photographic or video evidence.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:26:59 +0000
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post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 14:26
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 27 Nov 2018 - 14:39
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It's virtually certain part of your vehicle crossed the stop line when the light was red, otherwise the RLC wouldn't have triggered. Ask for photographs to "aid in the identification of the driver", they will most likely supply them. If it shows your vehicle moving over the stop line when the lights are red, then you have no options but to accept the likely fixed penalty or course offer.

BTW amber means stop unless it is unsafe to do so.
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Speckle
post Thu, 29 Nov 2018 - 23:07
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Many thanks for this response. I guess it is as I feared, unfortunately! As you say, it seems almost certain that I did cross the stop line when the light was red, even if I didn't actually go across the junction. I wanted to check, though, because this is the first time this has happened to me and I didn't know whether there might be any mitigation for literally just going beyond the stop line. It would seem not, based on your response. Thanks again.
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Logician
post Thu, 29 Nov 2018 - 23:24
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No, the offence is committed if any part of your vehicle crosses the stop line when the lights are red (or indeed amber unless it would be unsafe to stop, although this is not often prosecuted).

If the time you crossed the line was not too long into the red phase, you may be offered a course rather than a fixed penalty; at the other end of the spectrum, a long time into the red might result in the offence being referred to the court. From your description of what happened, a course sounds like a possibility. You have to pay for that but avoid any points on your licence.


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Howard Uno
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 17:04
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If there is forward momentum of the vehicle over the stop line after the light was red then the camera is triggered. The advice you have been given here is accurate.
There is no reason to cross the stop line.

Depending on the criteria used by the issuing force you might be offered a course. This will depend on how long the red lights were illuminated when you triggered the camera.

Once you've sent the NIP back and it's been processed you'll receive what they call a 'Conditional Offer'. Your options will be listed on there.


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Been dealing with this stuff for too many years!
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Mickyohearn
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 17:44
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 29 Nov 2018 - 23:24) *
No, the offence is committed if any part of your vehicle crosses the stop line when the lights are red (or indeed amber unless it would be unsafe to stop, although this is not often prosecuted).

If the time you crossed the line was not too long into the red phase, you may be offered a course rather than a fixed penalty; at the other end of the spectrum, a long time into the red might result in the offence being referred to the court. From your description of what happened, a course sounds like a possibility. You have to pay for that but avoid any points on your licence.



So what if your driving a 44T articulated truck, you move away from a green light, But the Truck is fully loaded therefore the power ratio is so slow that the Lights have now changed half way as you are moving, are you suppose to just stop even though this would result in blocking the junction or carry on?

Same applies to a sharp turn, Half way the lights change have changed to red, what are you suppose to do?


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Logician
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 18:33
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The law is indeed a real problem for long slow-moving vehicles, but it is what it is. If sufficiently far across the junction, the driver might not even be aware that the lights had changed to red. I would hope that the police and/or courts would apply the law pragmatically, rather than rigidly, because it is obviously better to clear the junction than to stop across it.


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Churchmouse
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 23:58
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QUOTE (Mickyohearn @ Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 17:44) *
So what if your driving a 44T articulated truck, you move away from a green light, But the Truck is fully loaded therefore the power ratio is so slow that the Lights have now changed half way as you are moving, are you suppose to just stop even though this would result in blocking the junction or carry on?

Same applies to a sharp turn, Half way the lights change have changed to red, what are you suppose to do?

FYI, in other countries it is whether the front of the vehicle crosses the stop line on red that is determinative. Must be something to do with driving on the left...

--Churchmouse
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