Parked in a Disabled Bay |
Parked in a Disabled Bay |
Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 14:46
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
I am posting on behalf of a friend and currently do not have all the documents to hand in regards to this "charge".
The charge was issued at a Leisure Park in Stevenage and is operated by UKPC. The windscreen notice states "Parked in a disabled person's space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person's badge". I believe he has also just recieved a NTK. I was not there at the time, but he tells me it was late evening (8pm), dark and the parking bays were not lit in any way. The painting of the disabled bay is not very legible in the dark and there are no lit or reflective signs near the bay to make it clear. Their photos: https://ibb.co/eXxxnc https://ibb.co/dE11DH https://ibb.co/n9jMDH https://ibb.co/cO5TtH https://ibb.co/eLS8tH https://ibb.co/bPkHnc https://ibb.co/jOvHnc https://ibb.co/hCWCLx https://ibb.co/hUViSc Location pictures: https://ibb.co/cQrXnc https://ibb.co/njCitH He has not yet submitted any appeals to UKPC and would like a bit of advice before he does. Kind regards. |
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 14:46
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 17:10
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,506 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
What is clear is that they will reject any appeal on the basis of ‘poor signage’ but POPLA can be swayed. The pictures don’t seem to clearly show the contravention and there doesn’t appear to be any signage that a disabled person could see either which there should be...
If POPLA reject then any claim could be defended on the same basis. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:33
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
Was your friend a user of the leisure centre at the time?
First thing is to ask the Manager if they will cancel the PCN as been a customer at the time. Not asking at the reception desk! |
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Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 10:47
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Can you go back at the same time, or degree of darkness ie time after sunset, and take the saem pictures without flash to show the signs on the ground not visible
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Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 15:59
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
there doesn’t appear to be any signage that a disabled person could see either which there should be... This is one of the things I considered. I would assume it would be some form of requirement to have legible signage, but being it is private land would this come under a BPA Code of Practice or is there a legal requirement? I found this in the CoP: QUOTE So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there should be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign should be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists. AlsoQUOTE If you intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, your signs must give ’adequate notice’. This includes: • following any applicable government signage regulations. For them to obtain the driver's details, would the parking bay require the correct signage (i.e this)? Was your friend a user of the leisure centre at the time? First thing is to ask the Manager if they will cancel the PCN as been a customer at the time. Not asking at the reception desk! I believe he was inside the restaurant in the image. Being this is a leisure park with multiple businesses, is a manager of only one of those businesses able to have any sway on the ticket? I know this is a common approach when dealing with a shop like Morrisons, but was unsure if it would apply to parking in a leisure park. Can you go back at the same time, or degree of darkness ie time after sunset, and take the saem pictures without flash to show the signs on the ground not visible I will ask him if he has time to do so - it is not too far from where he lives. |
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Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 10:26
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
Hi,
Just to update and ask for a bit of further details on how (or if) to proceed. He has not received a NTK or any further correspondence - only the windscreen ticket. Can I just check, the current best course of action is waiting for an NTK? |
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Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 11:10
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
NO, you appel before the end of day 26 so they DO NOT send a NTK
Then they cannot comply with POFA, meaning the keeper is not liable OF COURSE it is the KEEPER that appeals. |
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Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 15:08
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
NO, you appel before the end of day 26 so they DO NOT send a NTK Then they cannot comply with POFA, meaning the keeper is not liable OF COURSE it is the KEEPER that appeals. Thank you. There is the "one size fits all" template on the MSE forum that I assume is fine to use in this case, which I will send around the 26th day. Would there be any reason to add to the points regarding the lack of disability accessible signage or would it be a waste of energy? |
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Tue, 6 Mar 2018 - 07:38
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Waste of energy. Hence it is a template.
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Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 09:40
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
Just a quick check while I wait for day 26.
The vehicle registration has since been changed to a private plate - would this have any affect on procedures? Cheers. |
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Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 10:45
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
None.
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Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 15:38
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
For the sake of record, "One size fits all" submitted on Day 25.
Will update based on their next correspondence. |
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Fri, 30 Mar 2018 - 11:04
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 10:18
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
POPLA Code has now been received. I do not believe any of the following correspondence is considered an NtK?
The only correspondence received are: (17/02/18) Window ticket (14/03/18) Automated Email (confirming receipt of online appeal) (21/03/18) Request for full driver information (10/04/18) POPLA Code I couldn't find a fully relevant success case that covers not having been issued the NtK having searched through the forum for about an hour. From my understanding of reading other cases, I should draft an appeal to POPLA showing all key points (no POFA compliance, poorly lit signage, poorly maintained bay). Could someone confirm or correct my understanding of the lack of NtK and the next step? Also if there are any key points I should cover or avoid? Cheers. |
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 11:05
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
None of those are a NtK
You will have seen lots of success that POFA was not complied with. Well to comply with POFA a NtK MUST be received within teh timescales alowed. No ifs or buts. You include a WS from yourself confirming no NtK was received. |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 11:34
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
Not to be a pest and to make sure I am going about the right path:
The registered keeper (not myself) is to appeal to POPLA with the key point that UKPC failed to comply with POFA. Additional to the appeal the RK should write a witness statement as additional evidence, simply stating that they did not receive a NtK. A lot of threads I have read still give the advice to add a statement regarding the signage being inadequate. Is this still recommended in this scenario? |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 12:23
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Correct, post the appeal for comment before sending of course.
POFA is a near sure fire win, but personally I’d include signage and standing as well. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sun, 15 Apr 2018 - 09:46
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Think' about it logically
You can use one appeal point. If it wins, you win. If it doesn't, you lose If you use multiple appeal points, only one has to win for you to win. Your choice. |
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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 12:05
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
Uploaded PDF File of appeal, if anyone with 5 minutes could have a look and let me know if I missed anything?
(I used a few other people's succesful POPLA appeals and some additional wording to form my own appeal). http://docdro.id/oFHCAwL This post has been edited by Drofder: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 12:06 |
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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 - 12:30
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 5 Feb 2015 Member No.: 75,558 |
Gentle bump, if anyone could be so kind as to spend a moment looking over the appeal it would be appreciated.
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