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Illegal Registration Plate, VRM not conforming
creesteN
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:44
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Good Afternoon,

I have recently received a traffic offence report for the reason of offence code 400, VRM not conforming. Let me explain the situation first:

  • I have arrived at a council, public access, free to use (at that time of the day) car park. I met my friend there and parked beside him. The place was known for various car meets which have been shut down by the local police and council. No event was happening that evening. With only me, and my friend being there in the other car, we have been chatting outside our cars for a few minutes. Two foot police show up; they write our registration down. I question it, they say they have no issue with us, it's only for the record if there is any antisocial behaviour. They told us we can stay.
  • 10 minutes later, a marked police car shows up, tells us to leave with no discussions as there is a dispersal order in place. I ask if I can repark my car on the other side of the car park and stay on foot, go across the road to a shop, etc. They immediately get out and look for a reason to fine me.


I then receive a telling off about my license plate as the other officer looks for more issues (finds none). I get told to get in the car and present my ID. When I question the officer as to why I'm getting the ticket, I get the response: "VRM not conforming". I ask him to be more specific, he says - I have no stamps with BS, postcodes, etc. I tell him to check again, he comes back telling me they're not visible. I tell him they don't have to be. He then adds onto that telling me the material is not reflective (it is, I have photos of the light bouncing straight into my camera), the letters are not smooth (they are pressed), and the position is not in the middle.

I have not argued about the letters as I wasn't sure. I checked the rules, I can't see anything prohibiting it. Position, I argued, mentioning the plates on Alfa Romeo. His reason was 'it's legal because it's standard, your car doesn't come like that'. I'm not satisfied and waiting for correspondence to come from police now.

What should my course of action be? I can send photographs if required.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by creesteN: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:46
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post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:44
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creesteN
post Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 14:25
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 11:24) *
The number plate does not comply with the layout and spacing. the top row of letters/numerals should be positioned centrally, not set to the right.

See diagram 3b in the link above. But let the court/cps provide that evidence.


I have blanked out one letter for privacy.
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baroudeur
post Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 17:30
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 12:24) *
The number plate does not comply with the layout and spacing. the top row of letters/numerals should be positioned centrally, not set to the right.

See diagram 3b in the link above. But let the court/cps provide that evidence.



In the OP's photo of the plate it shows the BS AU145d mark and the suppliers name and postcode but not centrally as required and it does not show the plate manufacturer or component supplier's name adjacent to the BS mark as shown in this plate layout

Interestingly, a number of reputable number plate suppliers list square number plates but only in yellow i.e. rear plates. Further, none of the major brand plate manufacturers list pressed aluminium plates other than black/white/silver for pre 1971 registered cars.

If only the UK followed other countries where plates are issued by the state in the official format. rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 17:32
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creesteN
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 13:13
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The non endorsable penalty of 100 gbp has arrived today. It says I have 28 days to comply with the conditions.

"You were the driver / passenger of motor vehicle ... At the time of an alleged offence, Drive a vehicle when the registration mark fails to conform with regulations contrary to Contrary to section 59(1) of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 at...."

What is my next course of action?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 13:25
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If you're guilty pay it. If not, don't. If you don't expect to end up in court defending yourself.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Logician
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 14:13
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Be aware that if you decide to defend the matter in court and lose, it will not simply be a matter of £100, but a fine related to your income, plus a surcharge plus prosecution costs, which will be very much more. You need to be very sure of your ground to take this to court.


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creesteN
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 14:52
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That's where you guys are very helpful to me. On the basis of all the information I've given, have I got a good ground of winning this? To be honest I don't even know what the reason for the ticket is.
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Jlc
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 15:37
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QUOTE (creesteN @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 15:52) *
To be honest I don't even know what the reason for the ticket is.

This is why it's worth making further enquiries - they may not be receptive to this though. From what we do know it appears to be the BS 145d compliance (visibility of postcode etc., pressed letters, reflective) and the overall positioning (not in the middle).

If you can show compliance and that the plate is readable within the bounds discussed earlier then you appear to have a case.

I presume you haven't changed the plate or the positioning?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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baroudeur
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 16:46
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 16:37) *
QUOTE (creesteN @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 15:52) *
To be honest I don't even know what the reason for the ticket is.

This is why it's worth making further enquiries - they may not be receptive to this though. From what we do know it appears to be the BS 145d compliance (visibility of postcode etc., pressed letters, reflective) and the overall positioning (not in the middle).

If you can show compliance and that the plate is readable within the bounds discussed earlier then you appear to have a case.

I presume you haven't changed the plate or the positioning?


If it is not known which specific item(s) triggered the contravention how can a defence be prepared? There are two separate bits of legislation involved with numbers plates, the BS AU145d requirements and Regulation 6 of The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001.

Do pressed aluminium plates conform to BS AU145d? Perhaps not as the reflectivity requirement relates, specifically, to acrylic plates the specification of which was changed with the 2001 regulations.
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peterguk
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:13
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:46) *
Do pressed aluminium plates conform to BS AU145d?


They can do. Depends on the manufacturer.


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bill w
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 20:24
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:13) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:46) *
Do pressed aluminium plates conform to BS AU145d?


They can do. Depends on the manufacturer.


Whilst I appreciate that anyone can claim anything, and it doesn't make it true, the link in my Post 47 points to the vendor, who claims
"DVLA APPROVED registered number plate suppliers (RNPS-51923)"
"White & Yellow plates will be made using reflective material and is BS AU 145d Standard"

They also require the correct documentation to complete the order.

I accept that this doesn't prove that they are fully legal plates, but if they are not, how on earth is the average purchaser supposed to know?

Obviously the vendor has no control over where, or how they are mounted.

I do have more than a passing interest, as I need a new plate for one of the bikes, and would prefer a legit metal one.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 21:09
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QUOTE (bill w @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 21:24) *
I accept that this doesn't prove that they are fully legal plates, but if they are not, how on earth is the average purchaser supposed to know?

You purchase from a reputable supplier. Just the same with any other maintenance on your car. You, the motorist, are responsible for ensuring your car is safe and legal and if you delegate aspects of that it should be to a competent person.

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bill w
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 21:36
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 22:09) *
QUOTE (bill w @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 21:24) *
I accept that this doesn't prove that they are fully legal plates, but if they are not, how on earth is the average purchaser supposed to know?

You purchase from a reputable supplier. Just the same with any other maintenance on your car. You, the motorist, are responsible for ensuring your car is safe and legal and if you delegate aspects of that it should be to a competent person.


And what better way than checking the supplier on the government's own website
Try entering E11 1HT off the OP's numberplate, and all seems legit.

Results near E11 1HT:
EJ Parts & Accessories Ltd,
Forest House Business Centre 8 Gainsborough Road, London,
E11 1HT
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creesteN
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 22:39
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 16:37) *
QUOTE (creesteN @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 15:52) *
To be honest I don't even know what the reason for the ticket is.

This is why it's worth making further enquiries - they may not be receptive to this though. From what we do know it appears to be the BS 145d compliance (visibility of postcode etc., pressed letters, reflective) and the overall positioning (not in the middle).

If you can show compliance and that the plate is readable within the bounds discussed earlier then you appear to have a case.

I presume you haven't changed the plate or the positioning?


No no. I haven't made any changes to the plate or the positioning. I'll be making a letter of appeal to Greater Manchester Police to explain why I feel this plate doesn't violate any rules to see where that takes me.
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Logician
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 23:26
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:46) *
If it is not known which specific item(s) triggered the contravention how can a defence be prepared? There are two separate bits of legislation involved with numbers plates, the BS AU145d requirements and Regulation 6 of The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001.


As with speeding, evidence is not provided with the offer of a fixed penalty, only if the case goes to court. But if the OP makes an enquiry to GMP they might be willing to explain what aspect of the plate caused them concern.

QUOTE
No no. I haven't made any changes to the plate or the positioning. I'll be making a letter of appeal to Greater Manchester Police to explain why I feel this plate doesn't violate any rules to see where that takes me.


You cannot appeal a fixed penalty but you can certainly ask what they say is wrong with it.



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creesteN
post Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 23:38
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 00:26) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:46) *
If it is not known which specific item(s) triggered the contravention how can a defence be prepared? There are two separate bits of legislation involved with numbers plates, the BS AU145d requirements and Regulation 6 of The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001.


As with speeding, evidence is not provided with the offer of a fixed penalty, only if the case goes to court. But if the OP makes an enquiry to GMP they might be willing to explain what aspect of the plate caused them concern.

QUOTE
No no. I haven't made any changes to the plate or the positioning. I'll be making a letter of appeal to Greater Manchester Police to explain why I feel this plate doesn't violate any rules to see where that takes me.


You cannot appeal a fixed penalty but you can certainly ask what they say is wrong with it.


A friend of mine was fined for almost the same offence, followed with a letter to GMP and they have cancelled the fine without going to court?

Can I get everyone's opinions if provided by the fact that:

A. I have all relevant stamps on the registration.
B. It is reflective and retroreflective (I have photos where it bounces back at me from an angle).
C. The supplier stated it's legal in an ebay conversation.
D. The positioning has not been measured (ie. visibility area checked) by the police when stopped.
E. I did some rough measurements and it seems just about ok (once again, Police have no evidence that it isn't).
F. Letters are pressed, but nowhere in the regulations does it say they can't be.

Do I stand a good ground of winning this in court, or should I just pay it?
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The Rookie
post Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 04:55
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With a prepared defence yes, there is a statement above that the makers name must be central, but I can't find that requirement.

GMP cannot 'cancel the fine' as its not yet one, nor strictly can they cancel a fixed penalty once offered, what they can do is confirm no further action will be taken if the fixed penalty isn't paid, I know that is semantics to a large extent but its worth understanding them in your situation.


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Gan
post Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 07:35
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Your original post dated 16 March said that you had recently received the penalty

How recently because you're getting close to the deadline ?

My understanding is that if you don't positively reject the Fixed Penalty, you won't be defending it in court
After 28 days it will be recorded as a fine and increased by 50%

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The Rookie
post Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 08:51
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QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 08:35) *
My understanding is that if you don't positively reject the Fixed Penalty, you won't be defending it in court
After 28 days it will be recorded as a fine and increased by 50%

If you read the thread the OP doesn't appear to have a "fixed penalty notice" but a "conditional offer of a fixed penalty" which does not carry the same implications.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Gan
post Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 09:04
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Thanks

I read that he asked why he was getting the ticket but not the earlier part about receiving the traffic report
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io1901
post Thu, 6 Apr 2017 - 09:09
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 5 Apr 2017 - 17:46) *
Do pressed aluminium plates conform to BS AU145d?

They can do. Depends on the manufacturer.


How can they if BS AU145d states they have to be made from "crash resistant acrylic"? It seems that pressed plates can be be bought from "approved supplies" but do the pressed plates themselves comply with BS AU145d.
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