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Parking Eye Fine
angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:26
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Hello everyone, I need some help on what to do here please?

We visited the Wye Valley Visitor Centre in Ross on Wye on the 7th May. Paid £2 for 4hours parking starting at 10am until 14:00.

We visited the butterfly centre, had lunch and left at 14:17 not realising we had overstayed by 17 minutes.

We received a letter from Parking Eye about a week after this to state that we needed to pay a fine. My husband convinced me to ignore it and tore up the letter saying they cannot enforce it.
We received another "reminder" a week or so later and he did the same.

Today we have received the £100.00 fine from them and now I'm starting to worry that we should have appealed rather than ignored.

I agree with my husband that a £100 fine for 17 minutes overstay is not right but what do we do here?
I have seen a letter template online with an extra piece for appealing late and i have a bank statement showing payment to the butterfly house which I have inserted in the letter.

My question is, do I ignore this letter as my husband is still suggesting or do I reply with this template??
Many Thanks for your help on this, I did not need this stress today!

thank you everyone
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post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:26
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:53
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Ignoring will almost guarantee you a court claim and they are (potentially) enforceable.

Is appealing still an option now? The letters should not have been disposed of as we can't check some vital information now about 'keeper liability'. (But if it arrived within a week I suspect they are able to pursue the keeper)

Contact the visitors centre/butterfly place ASAP to see if they can assist - they may be able to as this stage. They definitely won't at court claim stage.

They have to allow a minimum of 10 minutes grace to exit after a period of parking and 17 obviously exceeds this.

QUOTE (angrybutterfly @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:26) *
I agree with my husband that a £100 fine for 17 minutes overstay is not right but what do we do here?

Unfortunately the Supreme Court saw it fit to allow such sums to be recoverable under certain circumstances. There are ways to defend but the aforementioned judgment can make it harder and it will require attending a court hearing.

QUOTE (angrybutterfly @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:26) *
I have seen a letter template online with an extra piece for appealing late and i have a bank statement showing payment to the butterfly house which I have inserted in the letter.

Do not send any templates without posting it here first. They are pursuing the money for their own coffers and won't care about the payment to the butterfly house.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:51


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:02
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Thank you for your response.

I have looked online and there is a section on the Butterfly Zoo's website that says they will not get involved in matters (see below)

"You can appeal a Parking Charge Notice if it was unfairly issued Our customers are not exempt from paying for parking, we do not operate the car park, and the Operator does not disclose their evidence of infringement to us, so it would not be right for us to intervene.

We are not qualified to provide an impartial or lawful appeal service, but you may find the following information useful:

The Car Park Operator is accredited, so you can appeal free of charge
ParkingEye Ltd is in the British Parking Association Approved Operator Scheme. The appeal process is strictly regulated for your protection, with checks and balances. See the information printed on the Parking Charge Notice.
If your appeal to the operator is unsuccessful they must give you the opportunity of a formal appeal to PoPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals), the expertise, impartiality and independence of which is assured by Ombudsman Services. See the Operator's reply for details.
If you have questions for or about the car park operator please go to the FAQ at the ParkingEye website . If you need advice go to Citizens Advice for help that you can trust.

Please respect that Wye Valley Visitor Centre staff have no duty to give customer support on parking issues Information about parking given by Centre staff is out of courtesy and in good faith in the manner of any tourist information and is not intended to form a contract, or modify your contract with ParkingEye, or constitute legal advice.
Lindsay Heyes"

Here is also my letter put together from pepipoo.com

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from you.
My appeal on this matter is included below. I do not accept liability for the above parking charge and I have no intention of paying the money you have demanded. Although my appeal is being submitted late, should you decline my appeal I still request a POPLA code from you. To help facility an efficient resolution to this matter, I am willing to be provide you an undertaking to be bound by the decision of POPLA, thus guaranteeing that this case will not proceed to court.
I draw your attention to the Practice Direction requirement to utilise an appropriate form of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) before commencing court proceedings. In the circumstances of you not accepting my appeal, I invite you to refer this dispute to the Parking On Private Land appeals service (“POPLA”), which is the appropriate form of ADR set up by the parking industry for this precise situation.
Please note: not withstanding the fact that any decision of POPLA is legally binding on the parking company, and not the motorist, in the spirit of exploring an amicable resolution of this dispute, I am providing you an undertaking to be bound by the decision of POPLA, thus ensuring that this case will not proceed to court. If I lose the appeal, I agree to pay the original parking charge notice amount.
A referral to POPLA will avoid you incurring legal fees and expenses, and perhaps more importantly will reduce the burden on the court (which is the reason for this Direction). Please do not seek to rely on any POPLA deadlines as POPLA has confirmed that it does not impose any time limit on an appeal to POPLA, and all that is required is for your client to issue a POPLA code.
I remind you that a failure or refusal by you to agree to my offer of both parties abiding by a POPLA decision would be clear evidence of your client’s failure to mitigate its alleged loss.
If you reject my offer to refer this dispute to ADR and instead choose to issue court proceedings, I shall invite the court to stay the case and make an order referring the case to POPLA. Further I shall oppose any application for costs that your client may wish to make, owing to its failure to mitigate, and shall instead make an application for my own wasted costs according to the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Practice Direction and CPR 27.14.
In the meantime, and in the absence of a compliant Letter Before Claim, you should place a note on your file to the effect that this charge is disputed and your firm is required to cease and desist all further contact with me. For the avoidance of doubt, the same applies to any debt collection agency you may choose to instruct.
I dispute owing you any amount and deny all liability in this matter. Please accept this letter as a formal appeal under your appeals process.
The basis of my appeal is:
1. The amount you have claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of any loss to either Parking Eye or the car park landowner.
2. The signs in your car park fail to comply with your Accredited Trade Association’s Code of Practice
3. No contract was formed with the driver due to the fact that your signs were was not sufficiently brought to the attention of the driver.
4. ParkingEye is not the landowner and therefore Parking Eye does not have the right to enter into a contract with a driver nor does Parking Eye have the right to bring a claim for trespass.
Please confirm in writing whether you accept my appeal and withdraw your demand. If you reject my appeal, please provide the following particulars:
1) The basis of your charge (i.e. contract breach, trespass or contractual fee).
• If you are alleging breach of contract, I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages you claim were suffered, and by whom, and how each particular loss arose.
• If you are alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the alleged perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.
• If you alleging a “contractual fee” I request a VAT invoice from you and ask you to explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for that fee.
2) Please also advise the amount of money you would have received from the driver of my vehicle should the alleged contract have been met to your satisfaction.
3) Please advise the name and address of the landowner.
4) Please provide a POPLA code that allows me to appeal to POPLA.
The driver was visiting the Butterfly House at the car park and I have enclosed evidence of this visit. (a screenshot is here of the payment to the butterfly house)

If ParkingEye rejects my appeal: please do not contact me again with more demands as I deny owing Parking Eye any money and deny that any driver of my vehicle has entered into a contract with you. Any legal action you initiate against me will be defended."



DO I still try to contact the butterfly house? the fact they have a section on their website I guess shows how many people have tried to contact them...

Thanks






sorry it also states on the back of the letter that the appeal period is over however they will consider appeals at this stage if there are mitigating circumstances and to include all information to assist, ie. a receipt from the day in question, proof of purchases via bank statement etc.

sorry the letter template was from http://parkingeye.parkingfine-appeals.co.uk/faq/
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:05
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That is complete crap from teh butterfly centre

THEY HIRED PARKING EYE. They are FULLY able to INSTRUCT Parking Eye on matters affecting their custmoers

Pointing out that truthful 1 star trip advisor reviews can result may give you some traction.
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:06
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:05) *
THEY HIRED PARKING EYE.

Can you be sure of that?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:08
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:05) *
That is complete crap from teh butterfly centre

THEY HIRED PARKING EYE. They are FULLY able to INSTRUCT Parking Eye on matters affecting their custmoers

Pointing out that truthful 1 star trip advisor reviews can result may give you some traction.



Funnily enough... I left a 1 star review about 10 minutes ago... I just dont know if there is time for me to wait for them to deal with it...
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:10
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Yup, looks like those companies have set their stall out and may not be able to help anyway... (They are not the landholder)

It is highly likely they will reject any appeal you make anyway, especially if late. You can try the 'genuine customer' route - lose all that stuff about demanding stuff and the 'loss' element.

POPLA will rule the PCN was correctly issued anyway.

So, the fight will be at court should they have been given the permission to do so from their principal. The defence would hinge about the signage being clear (although will be a struggle - need to see pictures) but primarily around the severe imbalance in charge given the underpaid tariff. I presume 3 hours was available, say for £1 more? The £100 charge in this context unreasonable - What the Appeal Court said in ParkingEye v Beavis :

QUOTE
When the court is considering an ordinary financial or commercial contract, then it is understandable that the law, which lays down its own rules as to the compensation due from a contract breaker to the innocent party, should prohibit terms which require the payment of compensation going far beyond that which the law allows in the absence of any contract provision governing this outcome.

The classic and simple case is that referred to by Tindal CJ in Kemble v Farren (1829) 6 Bing. 141 at 148: “But that a very large sum should become immediately payable, in consequence of the non-payment of a very small sum, and that the former should not be considered a penalty, appears to be a contradiction in terms, the case being precisely that in which courts of equity have always relieved, and against which courts of law have, in modern times, endeavoured to relieve, by directing juries to assess the real damages sustained by the breach of the agreement.”


Although some Judges are not swayed. But there's a very good chance of winning at court but the keeper would have to be prepared to attend.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:11
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Call them and tell them to cancel this outragreous charge for a paying customer
Ask to speak toa manager

Youre not under a huge time pressure given youve already missed their arbitrary 28 day appeal time, so get on with it.
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:13
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If they issue a claim then it will be for £175. A judgment would be around £200 should you lose.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:13


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:16
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Lookig at the other reviews on trip advisor this is a common thing it seems, a lot of people there getting stung for £100 fine and it seems the butterfly house want nothing to do with it...
I dont want to go to court. So what do i do. Try and call them? Appeal? or pay up??
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angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:30
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I have rang them and they take no responsibility for it whatsoever. Will not get involved. Told me to appeal with Parking Eye and they will not get involved. I am fuming.

Ok guys so help me ref the appeal letter, is it OK to go like that?

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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:32
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Noone has yet said pay up

Tell the butterfly house to cancel this. Mention the review.
THen you appeal to Parking Eye that theya re require to give a min ten minute grace period. Was it difficult to leave due to it being busy? Any people with protected characteristics there?
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angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:47
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:32) *
Noone has yet said pay up

Tell the butterfly house to cancel this. Mention the review.
THen you appeal to Parking Eye that theya re require to give a min ten minute grace period. Was it difficult to leave due to it being busy? Any people with protected characteristics there?



I spoke to them on the phone mentioned the review and the loads of others there and said it was harming his business. He said please do post on social media as it will show remind people to pay and park properly..... He said point blank he will not ask them to cancel it.

They do give a 10 minute grace period and we were 17 minutes over. But also, the car park charge started the moment we went in the barrier to the moment we left the barrier not when we actually bought a ticket.... Seems so unfair.

Children aged 4 and 2, pushchairs, picnics etc getting them all out of the car, it was pretty busy, perhaps that delayed exit a little...

I dont actually believe it but Ive just found the parking ticket down the side of my seat in the car.

Purchase time 10:09:07

Which means the £3 i paid covers me for 4hours which makes it 14:09 for expiry - we left at 14:17 so surely this should be covered by 10 minute grace period?? only sticking point is if we took 5 or 10 minutes to actually get the ticket???
What do you think?



This post has been edited by angrybutterfly: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:40
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:54
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The problem you face is that the signage was probably there to be read, you accepted the offer by purchasing the ticket and then exceeded the exit time by 17 minutes. You essentially agreed to pay £100 for the breach. In the words of one of the supreme court judges was that 'all you needed was a watch'. It is also quite possible you could have topped up before leaving too. (Pictures of signs crucial) Then you decided to ignore the letters and have missed their appeal window.

You're on the back foot and putting demands on firms that probably do not have the ability to cancel isn't necessarily going to work.

Having said that, we are not saying to pay either. What is clear is that this brush has made you aware of 'modern' private parking regimes and the necessity to read and abide by the terms to avoid tickets.

If you were going to pay then you should have taken the early discount (£60) option.

I think it's worth putting an appeal in on the simple basis that you were a genuine customer (provide proof) and that the signs were not obvious. Anything else about demanding the basis and genuine loss is going to scream 'Internet template' - and trust me this encourages them to reject and may encourage them to sue.

But I wouldn't be paying them £100 now. At the very least they should send a letter before county court claim before actually issuing a claim. Or even better they might start the barrage of 'debt collector' letters which appear to show they don't have the ability to sue.

They don't want to go to court either, principally because even if they do win they have to pay out significant costs to send a contracted lawyer to defend - they aren't seeking pyrrhic victories. It's a numbers game. But don't underestimate their willingness to go to a hearing either.

As I said, their win is not guaranteed and a lot has to be said about standing up and fighting.

QUOTE (angrybutterfly @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:47) *
Purchase time 10:09:07

Which means the £3 i paid covers me for 4hours which makes it 14:09 for expiry - we left at 14:17 so surely this should be covered by 10 minute grace period?? only sticking point is if we took 5 or 10 minutes to actually get the ticket???
What do you think?

Signs are crucial. They will claim the period of parking had already started at the perimeter as you entered before you actually purchased the ticket. This can definitely be attacked as potentially unfair and there is settled law to reference that the contract does not commence until the fee is paid. (As long as the period from entry to purchase was not excessive - which it wasn't)

But in your appeal you can state the minimum grace period applied.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:04


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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angrybutterfly
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:55
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Thank you for your help.

Did you see my last comment about having found the parking ticket and the possibility of being within the Grace period?? Is it worth going down that route?

If so is there a template or some wording I can use or am i just simple and truthful?

Thanks again
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:55
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It is trite law that the parking contract starts from when the ticket is bought. Not an unknown time before calculated frmo an unknown point.

It owuld be good to see pictures. Please try to find some of the sighs.
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:06
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QUOTE (angrybutterfly @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:55) *
Did you see my last comment about having found the parking ticket and the possibility of being within the Grace period?? Is it worth going down that route?

If so is there a template or some wording I can use or am i just simple and truthful?

Yes, I've answered it... Yes, I think a firm but truthful 'appeal' will stand more chance and puts you in a much better place should you need.

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:55) *
It is trite law that the parking contract starts from when the ticket is bought. Not an unknown time before calculated frmo an unknown point.

Yes, but the agreed contract (subject to seeing the signs) will state that the offer is a period of parking that commenced at the perimeter. It's not strictly an unknown point but one the consumer may not fully be aware of and it would not be unreasonable that the ticket issued is documented proof of expiry.

The exit time is within 10 minutes of that printed on the ticket. Well within the grace period - as stated in the BPA's code of practice.

It's sharp practice but that's private parking... Personally, I think this is perfectly winnable at court but unfortunately it's all about the process.

QUOTE
13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally
permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable
grace period in addition to the parking event before
enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace
period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the
private car park after the parking contract has ended, before
you take enforcement action. If the location is one where
parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end
of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.


I would put in your appeal (as a 'mitigating circumstance') that they are in breach of the BPA's code of practice by not allowing minimum 10 minutes grace.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:07


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:17
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:54) *
The problem you face...
...You're on the back foot...

I just want to add that my 'dose of reality' was before ticket time info came to light. Definitely fight this.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:18
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It isnt sharp practice!

The ticket is when the contract STARTS. Regardless of the signs, they are MISLEADING a consumer if they seek to rely on an unknown time of entry when the CONSUMER has a perfectly good start of contract in front of them.

Trite. Settled. No arguments. Law of contract

To rely on an ambiguous unknown start time instead is perverse and wouldnt have a snowballs chance in court.
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Redivi
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:28
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I've actually seen a ParkingEye reply to a defence where they've told the court that the paid for period expired at the time calculated from entry and not the time printed on the ticket
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