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M11 Birchanger Services
Mad Hatter
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 23:06
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Hi,

Can anyone please advise on this?

My friend borrowed the car to drop his family at the airport and he has also since left to rejoin them in Italy. Unknown to me he overstayed the parking at the services and I know have a demand for payment, is there any possibility of appealing this?

Thank you
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post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 23:06
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ostell
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 23:46
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Post up the Notice to Keeper you received suitably redacted so that identification details are removed.

If the parking company have failed to comply with the requirements of POFA then you do a simple appeal and that's the end of it.

The other choice if the notice is compliant with POFA and the keeper is liable is to name the driver. This removes your liability and they have to chase the driver. The PPCs usually can't stomach chasing someone who lives abroad and Italy is outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts. They may come back and state that a non UK address is not valid but it is. You have to give them both name and address

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 23:47
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hexaflexagon
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 00:27
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Alternatively if he's a friend ask him to do the decent thing, send you the money and pay it on his behalf.
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:47
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No, don't pay ParkingEye, they are not worthy of money from posters here.

Name the driver (online appeal) and give his address in Italy. Warn him he might get a letter but he can safely ignore it, as they won't sue someone in Italy.
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hexaflexagon
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 00:38
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:47) *
No, don't pay ParkingEye, they are not worthy of money from posters here.

Name the driver (online appeal) and give his address in Italy. Warn him he might get a letter but he can safely ignore it, as they won't sue someone in Italy.


Notwithstanding that there might be lots of other instances where we'd all agree PE are 'not worthy of money', in this case all we know so far is that the parking charge is perfectly in order.

This is a zero sum game and for everyone who gains when there is no justification someone who shouldn't be penalised has been.

The driver has erred and to suggest he should ignore it is really going down a slippery slope. Fair enough if the driver does pay it but surely he's more likely to do that if he knows he's letting his mate down. The emphasis should be on ensuring it's paid not that it shouldn't.
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emanresu
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 07:40
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QUOTE
The driver has erred


We don't know that as we don't have the facts - only that an ANPR camera and a computer server somewhere has picked up an image and converted it into data which appears to put the driver in the wrong.

No humans have been used in the creation of the letters and should you believe everything a computer does?


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:06
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Why is this a zero sum game?

Why should a simple breach of contract result in a massive penalty? I dont care what teh SC thinks - theyre wrong in this. THeyve presumed PE has a right to exist and have supported them ni this, rather than worrying why we're the only country I know of that even HAS this "business" (parasitical) model in the first damned place

PE are crapita. Crapita can go die for all I care about them.
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:32
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And if you appeal on line and name your friend then make sure you take a screen shot before you hit the send button, just in case they forget you've named the driver. Haven't seen the PCN yet to see if it complies with POFA, though SRM mentions PE are there so it probably will.
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hexaflexagon
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 07:40) *
QUOTE
The driver has erred


We don't know that as we don't have the facts - only that an ANPR camera and a computer server somewhere has picked up an image and converted it into data which appears to put the driver in the wrong.

No humans have been used in the creation of the letters and should you believe everything a computer does?


I said the driver has erred since I took it as correct that what the OP said was factually correct. I specifically said, because there is nothing to suggest otherwise, 'All we know so far is the charge is perfectly in order'. My comment was predicated on that alone.

Of course should it be shown or indeed if the driver attests that the parking period had not been exceeded then that's a whole new ball game.

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:06) *
Why is this a zero sum game?

Why should a simple breach of contract result in a massive penalty? I dont care what teh SC thinks - theyre wrong in this. THeyve presumed PE has a right to exist and have supported them ni this, rather than worrying why we're the only country I know of that even HAS this "business" (parasitical) model in the first damned place

PE are crapita. Crapita can go die for all I care about them.


I didn't say it was a 'fair' zero sum game merely a zero sum gain. Self evidently what one party pays out the other receives - that's just an unarguable fact. What's a fair penalty is a whole new discussion and we'll all have our own views on when reasonableness moves over the line into unfairness.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:04
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"This is a zero sum game and for everyone who gains when there is no justification someone who shouldn't be penalised has been"

It was the "and" I took issue with.
There is no reasonable, fair justification for the £100 charge. None.
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cabbyman
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 14:02
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Getting too complicated here folks!

PoFA provides that RK can discharge liability by providing name and address of driver. Job done.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 14:03


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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Mad Hatter
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 20:40
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Sorry for the late reply and thank you to all who have responded.

I have no doubt my friend would pay as he has said I can provide his details if needed.

It seems harsh to levy such a disproportionate charge to the actual cost.

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cabbyman
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 20:50
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Is your friend's address ion Italy reasonably long term or is it holiday?

If it is long term, it serves as an address to contact the driver. The fact that it's overseas is irrelevant from your point of view. Naming the driver, with an address, discharges your obligation as RK under PoFA. Job done.

He doesn't have to pay because he is beyond the jurisdiction of the English court.

2(1)In this Schedule—
“the appropriate national authority” means—
(a)in relation to relevant land in England, the Secretary of State; and
(b)in relation to relevant land in Wales, the Welsh Ministers;
“the creditor” means a person who is for the time being entitled to recover unpaid parking charges from the driver of the vehicle;
“current address for service” means—
(a)in the case of the keeper, an address which is either—
(i)an address at which documents relating to civil proceedings could properly be served on the person concerned under Civil Procedure Rules; or
(ii)the keeper’s registered address (if there is one); or
(b)in the case of the driver, an address at which the driver for the time being resides or can conveniently be contacted;


In my view, given that c'convenient contact' these days is by E mail, you can be 'conveniently contacted' anywhere in the world.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 20:51


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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hexaflexagon
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:00
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QUOTE (Mad Hatter @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 20:40) *
Sorry for the late reply and thank you to all who have responded.

I have no doubt my friend would pay as he has said I can provide his details if needed.

It seems harsh to levy such a disproportionate charge to the actual cost.

This is the back page


What was the reason for the overstay?
The DfT Agency have said that where there has been an accident on the MWay causing traffic to back up making it impossible to leave the services, or where the motorist has taken note that the traffic is at standstill in the area of the services making it impractical to leave before it clears then services operators are expected under their licence to make due allowance. They've said that the Highways Agency are able to provide evidence of traffic conditions at a particular time and place should that be needed.

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:01
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 22:35
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Yes, it is POFA compliant on the back page. Unless there was more than 14 days between event and your receipt of the notice it would be difficult to fight.

Just because you give the name and address of your friend in Italy doesn't mean he has to pay: He just ignores it.
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Mad Hatter
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 09:37
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 22:35) *
Yes, it is POFA compliant on the back page. Unless there was more than 14 days between event and your receipt of the notice it would be difficult to fight.

Just because you give the name and address of your friend in Italy doesn't mean he has to pay: He just ignores it.



regrettably not, it arrived within the 14 days
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ostell
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 10:05
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So it's "name the friend" time before you run out of time as far as PE are concerned.
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