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Ticket on Suspended residents Bay, Help requested please
WillW
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:26
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Hi,

I just parked for about 15 minutes while going inside my home to collect something and hadn't realised the resident's bay had been suspended.

Got back to my car to find a ticket on the windscreen.

Photos of the suspension sign and the bay I was parked in are attached. I was parked to the left of the Pay and Display sign which is a residents bay.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this. I noticed the suspension sign does not appear to carry a reason for the suspension (they usually do) and also that the bay end markings are single rather than double although I'm not sure if either of these are relevant.

Many thanks
WW






This post has been edited by WillW: Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:28
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post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:26
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:34
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GSV is a bit old but was the suspension sign on the pole shown here - it's quite a way from numbers 16-12 I think and you wouldn't really think to check. Is the suspension sign a triangular 3D shape?

get the councils's pics.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5056157,-0....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:35
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:55
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We need to see the council photos. From yours and your narrative then you were outside the residents bay and into the shared use bay so no contravention

This is the authorised sign it should have the location reason is not required

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3927.pdf
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:42
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:55) *
you were outside the residents bay and into the shared use bay so no contravention


? OP says he was in the res bay to the left of the P&D (not shared use) sign.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:48
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 17:42) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:55) *
you were outside the residents bay and into the shared use bay so no contravention


? OP says he was in the res bay to the left of the P&D (not shared use) sign.

yep mis read
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WillW
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:52
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Thanks for the feedback so far:

Vehice was in res bay.

I didn't see the suspension sign which is outside number 20 - approx 6 or 7 car lengths away from where I parked outside number 12.

Suspension sign is triangular.

Also just to add I do have a valid residents permit which was correctly displayed.

Council photos are attached below:

Many thanks for the help.







This post has been edited by WillW: Thu, 17 May 2018 - 16:56
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 17:23
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I'm not sure "C.E.O. to check list" is a cognisable reason for suspending a parking bay.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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WillW
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:23) *
I'm not sure "C.E.O. to check list" is a cognisable reason for suspending a parking bay.


Thanks for your help. Would that render the suspension or PCN invalid? PASTMYBEST mentioned a reason not being a requirement.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:29
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Do you know of any reason for the suspension? No works appear to be going on in the area, domestic removal perhaps.

You can make an argument that as a resident permit holder you would not usually look at the sign as you know the restriction, also that so close to the daily end to the restriction with no works going on the de minimis principle should apply
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WillW
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:29) *
Do you know of any reason for the suspension? No works appear to be going on in the area, domestic removal perhaps.

You can make an argument that as a resident permit holder you would not usually look at the sign as you know the restriction, also that so close to the daily end to the restriction with no works going on the de minimis principle should apply


I suspect the reason for the suspension may be the building works at number 16 - there was one van parked outside number 14 (behind my car) but otherwise there was no obvious reason for the suspension.

Thanks, I'll read up on de minimis.
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:48
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QUOTE (WillW @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:00) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:23) *
I'm not sure "C.E.O. to check list" is a cognisable reason for suspending a parking bay.


Thanks for your help. Would that render the suspension or PCN invalid? PASTMYBEST mentioned a reason not being a requirement.

Unfortunately it's not a mandatory requirement so it won't win on its own.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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WillW
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:28
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:48) *
QUOTE (WillW @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 19:00) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 18:23) *
I'm not sure "C.E.O. to check list" is a cognisable reason for suspending a parking bay.


Thanks for your help. Would that render the suspension or PCN invalid? PASTMYBEST mentioned a reason not being a requirement.

Unfortunately it's not a mandatory requirement so it won't win on its own.


Thanks. Anything on the bay markings? I’m fairly sure they were double dash before they recently resurfaced the street.
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 13:55
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QUOTE (WillW @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 20:28) *
Thanks. Anything on the bay markings? I’m fairly sure they were double dash before they recently resurfaced the street.

I suspect an adjudicator would say they're substantially compliant.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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WillW
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:01
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:55) *
QUOTE (WillW @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 20:28) *
Thanks. Anything on the bay markings? I’m fairly sure they were double dash before they recently resurfaced the street.

I suspect an adjudicator would say they're substantially compliant.


Thanks. So I guess I don’t have much to go on. If I send a polite informal appeal along the lines of - oops I didn’t spot the sign which was a fair way from where i parked, that I didn’t drive past the sign along with a soft deminimis hint do I lose the ‘reduced payment discount’ if that fails?

Thanks again
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:56
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QUOTE (WillW @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 15:01) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 14:55) *
QUOTE (WillW @ Thu, 17 May 2018 - 20:28) *
Thanks. Anything on the bay markings? I’m fairly sure they were double dash before they recently resurfaced the street.

I suspect an adjudicator would say they're substantially compliant.


Thanks. So I guess I don’t have much to go on. If I send a polite informal appeal along the lines of - oops I didn’t spot the sign which was a fair way from where i parked, that I didn’t drive past the sign along with a soft deminimis hint do I lose the ‘reduced payment discount’ if that fails?

Thanks again

The PCN says that if you challenge within 14 days and they reject, they will normally allow another 14 days to pay the reduced amount, so there's no real risk in asking them to exercise discretion. They can't go back on their undertaking to extend the discount.


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WillW
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 15:09
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Many thanks
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hcandersen
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 15:22
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You imply but do not say that you live within the suspended area. In which case, what notice by letter or other direct means was given of the suspension to you by the council?
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WillW
post Fri, 18 May 2018 - 15:46
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 16:22) *
You imply but do not say that you live within the suspended area. In which case, what notice by letter or other direct means was given of the suspension to you by the council?


Thanks for your question and help.

Yes, I live on the same road sheffield Terrace and hold a valid residents permit for the borough of RBKC.

I was not given any direct notice by letter or otherwise of the suspension nor do we ever get notice except for major roadworks. I believe this may have been a suspension applied for by another resident related to a home being renovate at number 16.

I have just checked the council website and the search does not show any mention of this particular suspension - this is the results of all suspensions from 1st May onwards for Sheffield Terrace:

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/parking/suspensionresults.asp

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hcandersen
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 16:00
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OP, re you PM, the council's published policy is:

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/sites/default/files...02018%20NEW.pdf

'We will normally give seven calendar days' notice of a suspension ( unless it is an emergency) by putting yellow parking suspension warning signs as near as we can to the area... '.

You say it was not an emergency.

So, did they? You would have to have missed the sign repeatedly if they did.

I see they do not notify residents in writing, but 'as a courtesy' would try to phone residents whose vehicles were parked.

Did they?

Both are matters you should raise if they apply. And if you are unsure, then state what you know i.e. I did not notice any parking suspension warning sign in the 7 days prior to the effective date which gives me reason to believe that residents were not notified in this way, contrary to the council's policy.

As regards the telephone call, you've not said whether you live within the suspended area, so I can't comment.

Dispensing with individual letters would be OK, if the other measures are implemented and work.
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WillW
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 16:23
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Many thanks hcandersen. I do live on the suspended road. I didn’t receive a phone call on this occasion although I have had calls in the past so I know they do this and I know the council have my phone number.

The sign may well have been up for the 7 days before as is noted on the sign itself however I didn’t notice it as it is about 30 meters from the place where I parked and in the opposite direction from where I live. Hope that makes sense.

I think I have an approach but it all feels as mitigating circumstances so it looks like it’s going to be down to goodwill towards a resident with a valid permit. I believe the 15 or so mins I was parked didn’t have any significant impact on the use of the suspended bays which have remained largely empty.

This post has been edited by WillW: Sat, 19 May 2018 - 16:37
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