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Notifying driver without physical NIP
Slapdash
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 15:05
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Not live case. Yet.

I may have been flashed on the A4 at Saltford by Gatso this AM. There was one flash and tbh I think I was well outside the lined zone in the road and I am well aware of the camera.

If it was me it will be about 35 so in the course zone and I am eligible. V5C is at my home address.

But I am not.

My son is there and will let me know if anything comes.

But I am probably away for 6 weeks from mid next week. I will not have access to postal services.

If needed how do I fess up ? I will have phone and can call to admit I was driver but getting them anything physically signed is likely going to be impossible.

Force will be Avon and Somerset.

Fwiw I am away because I am caring for a friend who has had a cancer diagnosis and some significant surgery. She wants to go on a trip before chemo whilst she is still up to it.


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post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 15:05
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 15:30
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You can't. The police will only accept a driver nomination after an S172 request.

However, if the notice does come then your son could call the police and explain the circumstances. They are very likely to extend it, but even if they don't, you have a defence to the S172 if you give the information as soon as reasonably practicable.

QUOTE
(b)the person on whom the notice is served shall not be guilty of an offence under this section if he shows either that he gave the information as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of that period or that it has not been reasonably practicable for him to give it.
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Slapdash
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 21:18
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I guess my question really becomes "what constitutes a valid nomination". What does the law define that as.

In particular does it have to be on the provided S172 request form ? (I believe not).

Does it have to be on a physical piece of paper physically signed by me and the correspondence physically delivered ?

The problem being that if Avon police do not accept the nomination on anything other than their form then it will be off to court. If the law allows it I should be acquited of the inevitable FTF. But unless the underlying speeding has timed out I will still be prosecuted for that losing the course opportunity. (It is likely that I can make a written declaration on a piece of A4 that I can get couriered by someone else).

If the law does allow me to make a declaration by some other electronic means than the above also applies.

I appreciate that in any event the paragraph you quoted should give rise to an FTF defence in any circumstance, but I want to not lose the course option due to timing issues (and could do withot the hassle of defending an FTF).

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 21:42
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Glacier2
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 22:54
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Get your son to complete the form as your agent.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 07:10
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I'm wandering what the repercussions would be if son was to fill it in for you, sign it with a squiggle and post it.
Strictly speaking he should not sign but you are not going to be denying it, no false declaration and are the police even going to query it ?

Could pre-write and sign a covering letter.... Re speeding NIP/S172 number …Date…… (son to fill in blanks) I was the driver on the date and time given. My details are.... licence number, address etc ….. My Son has filled in the NIP with required information and signed on my behalf, please accept this letter as proof of my agreement for him to do this.... signed, dated.



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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 07:58
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 23:54) *
Get your son to complete the form as your agent.


The duty is non-delegable.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 08:10) *
I'm wandering what the repercussions would be if son was to fill it in for you, sign it with a squiggle and post it.
Strictly speaking he should not sign but you are not going to be denying it, no false declaration and are the police even going to query it ?


Forgery.

QUOTE
Could pre-write and sign a covering letter.... Re speeding NIP/S172 number …Date…… (son to fill in blanks) I was the driver on the date and time given. My details are.... licence number, address etc ….. My Son has filled in the NIP with required information and signed on my behalf, please accept this letter as proof of my agreement for him to do this.... signed, dated.


Since there is no requirement to use the form, why not just use this letter as the actual response?


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The Rookie
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 08:17
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I'm with SP.

While a returned form with a 'squiggle' isn't likely to cause an issue, it is still an act of dishonesty.

A 'Jones compliant' letter giving all the information required, signed and with a clear time and date and location of incident (and an explanation you aren't be awkward on purpose) is sufficient.


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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 08:33
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 08:58) *
...
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 08:10) *
I'm wandering what the repercussions would be if son was to fill it in for you, sign it with a squiggle and post it.
Strictly speaking he should not sign but you are not going to be denying it, no false declaration and are the police even going to query it ?


Forgery.
……….


Is it?
At least in the criminal sense.
From the 1981 Forgery and Counterfeiting Act
"The offence of forgery.
A person is guilty of forgery if he makes a false instrument, with the intention that he or another shall use it to induce somebody to accept it as genuine, and by reason of so accepting it to do or not to do some act to his own or any other person’s prejudice."
Accepted that it would be a false instrument and the intent for it to be accepted as genuine is there but where is the prejudice ?

There are obvious risks to son signing, ie. police not accepting the form and an S172 prosecution arising.
And cannot discount son ending up in the frame should Old Bill really take exception.
But practically, if the police receive a correctly filled in form, seemingly signed, what will they do with it ?

Genuine questions BTW, not saying that this is a safe option for the OP, just curiosity on my part.
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Slapdash
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 09:32
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Naturally I don't want to expose my son to any risks whatsoever. So I think my course of action should be:-

- Write a declaration unequivocally naming me and mentioning I am now travelling and that I elect for an SAC if offered. (Being Avon/Somerset the last one I dealt qith was a "super nip" allowing course selection and driver nomination.

- Post this to my son "in readiness".

- If/when this NIP arrives have son return the letter and the nip (unfilled in).

- Hope they accept it. If not when I discover this have a phone call with them and try and find out what will be acceptable.

- It appears that I should have an FTF defence via the letter and "practicality".

- My likely risk is that I end up losing the course possibility and end up with a fixed penalty.

- Worst case would appear to be having to defend FTF and/or "plea bargain".

Thanks for all ypur suggestions.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 13:51
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 09:33) *
Is it?
At least in the criminal sense.
From the 1981 Forgery and Counterfeiting Act
"The offence of forgery.
A person is guilty of forgery if he makes a false instrument, with the intention that he or another shall use it to induce somebody to accept it as genuine, and by reason of so accepting it to do or not to do some act to his own or any other person’s prejudice."
Accepted that it would be a false instrument and the intent for it to be accepted as genuine is there but where is the prejudice ?

Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, s 10

QUOTE
(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (4) below, for the purposes of this Part of this Act an act or omission intended to be induced is to a person’s prejudice if, and only if, it is one which, if it occurs—

(c) will be the result of his having accepted a false instrument as genuine, or a copy of a false instrument as a copy of a genuine one, in connection with his performance of any duty.


This post has been edited by southpaw82: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 13:51


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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 13:58
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 14:51) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 09:33) *
Is it?
At least in the criminal sense.
From the 1981 Forgery and Counterfeiting Act
"The offence of forgery.
A person is guilty of forgery if he makes a false instrument, with the intention that he or another shall use it to induce somebody to accept it as genuine, and by reason of so accepting it to do or not to do some act to his own or any other person’s prejudice."
Accepted that it would be a false instrument and the intent for it to be accepted as genuine is there but where is the prejudice ?

Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, s 10

QUOTE
(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (4) below, for the purposes of this Part of this Act an act or omission intended to be induced is to a person’s prejudice if, and only if, it is one which, if it occurs—

(c) will be the result of his having accepted a false instrument as genuine, or a copy of a false instrument as a copy of a genuine one, in connection with his performance of any duty.



Ta
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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 13:59
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Shocking that I might know what I’m doing wink.gif


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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 14:34
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 14:59) *
Shocking that I might know what I’m doing wink.gif


It's why we value your pearls of wisdom biggrin.gif
And learn from them.
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 21:42
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You are overthinking it.

You can't write a letter because you don't know what the details on the NIP may be.

The speed camera office will no doubt know the wording of S172 off by heart and if your son calls and explains that you have a statutory exemption for replying within 28 days, they aren't going to say "tough luck, the summons will be on your doormat tomorrow". They'll just make a note on the file and add a few weeks to the reply-by date.

It won't be too late for a SAC (four months).

Case law is that you must have a system in place to deal with your post whilst you are away. You've done that. It doesn't require you to write signed confessions for every eventuality that may appear in the post over a six week period.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 21:59
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:42) *
The speed camera office will no doubt know the wording of S172 off by heart


laugh.gif

QUOTE
Case law is that you must have a system in place to deal with your post whilst you are away.

Does it? Which?


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:04
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:59) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:42) *
The speed camera office will no doubt know the wording of S172 off by heart


laugh.gif

QUOTE
Case law is that you must have a system in place to deal with your post whilst you are away.

Does it? Which?

You would hope they would know one of the crucial pieces of legislation required for their job, although the requirement to know it combined with the IQ of someone applying for a job in a speed camera office may well cancel each other out.

Whiteside surely says you can't bugger off somewhere less rainy and reply to speed camera tickets on your return?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:08
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:04) *
Whiteside surely says you can't bugger off somewhere less rainy and reply to speed camera tickets on your return?

IIRC, Whiteside said it was open to the court to convict on that basis, not that it must.


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Glacier2
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:22
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Avon and Somerset have in the past insisted that any S172 reply is made on their form and nothing else.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 22:23
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:22) *
Avon and Somerset have in the past insisted that any S172 reply is made on their form and nothing else.

Are they still using a combined 172/CoFP?


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Slapdash
post Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 08:19
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:23) *
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 23:22) *
Avon and Somerset have in the past insisted that any S172 reply is made on their form and nothing else.

Are they still using a combined 172/CoFP?


They were earlier this year.

If the don't accept a nominatuon on a signed letter (despite it being legally acceptable) that is likely to be a nuisance for me. :-(
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