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Insurance conviction but without endorsement..declaration to insurer?, Last week I plead guilty to a driving without insurance charge
t35c0
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:15
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I was in court Monday last week for a Driving Without Insurance charge, I attended court by myself without representation.

In a nutshell, while my fully comp policy document stated one thing, the policy schedule stated something contradictory.

I was driving a friends car and while the policy schedule stated I was entitled to drive the car with third party cover and the owners permission, that wasn't stated on the Policy document itself.

The magistrates, who I thought were very sensible, stated while looking at all the paperwork, would also have thought cover was applicable and therefore accepted my guilty plea but stated due to the special circumstances they were not going to issue an endorsement and only fine me the minimum amount which is £120 + costs + surcharge.

Honestly, I'm not unhappy with this outcome as it was the best I could have hoped for given all the circumstances.

My question is, does this count as a spent conviction and do I have to declare it for insurance purposes going forward, as IMHO this was a paperwork snafu by the insurer and I don't want to get penalised going forward for their mistake.

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cp8759
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:50
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To be honest you would have been better off asking for an adjournment so that you had time to take make a complaint to the insurance company and if necessary to the Financial Ombudsman, or better still going down the ombudsman route before the trial. The FOS could well have held that the insurance company was required to provide the cover detailed in the schedule and you'd then have a solid defence which would likely have seen the police drop the charges. Whether the cover was valid is effectively a civil matter and the magistrates are no really equipped to deal with it, they also don't have the necessary powers to resolve such a dispute except in the most clear-cut of cases.

Whether you could get the case re-opened in the interest of justice under section 142 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 I don't know, but I'd certainly look into it. I'd like to think that if you went back to the same (very sensible) magistrates with evidence that the insurance was valid all along, they'd be willing to re-open the case.

If the conviction stands, you'll have to disclosure is to insurers in future or else your cover will be invalid, and this applies for as long as the conviction is not spent. Under section 5 of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/53/section/5 the rehabilitation period for a fine imposed on an adult offender is "The end of the period of 12 months beginning with the date of the conviction in respect of which the sentence is imposed"


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Slapdash
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 14:37
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It may also be worthwhile checking your documents as to when disclosure is required. Some insurers require immediate disclosure.
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t35c0
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:50) *
To be honest you would have been better off asking for an adjournment so that you had time to take make a complaint to the insurance company and if necessary to the Financial Ombudsman, or better still going down the ombudsman route before the trial. The FOS could well have held that the insurance company was required to provide the cover detailed in the schedule and you'd then have a solid defence which would likely have seen the police drop the charges. Whether the cover was valid is effectively a civil matter and the magistrates are no really equipped to deal with it, they also don't have the necessary powers to resolve such a dispute except in the most clear-cut of cases.

Whether you could get the case re-opened in the interest of justice under section 142 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 I don't know, but I'd certainly look into it. I'd like to think that if you went back to the same (very sensible) magistrates with evidence that the insurance was valid all along, they'd be willing to re-open the case.

If the conviction stands, you'll have to disclosure is to insurers in future or else your cover will be invalid, and this applies for as long as the conviction is not spent. Under section 5 of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/53/section/5 the rehabilitation period for a fine imposed on an adult offender is "The end of the period of 12 months beginning with the date of the conviction in respect of which the sentence is imposed"


I made a conscious decision to do it my way as frankly I don't have the time or energy to pursue a path that would have almost certainly have taken up far more time and likely required me to consult a solicitor at some point, simplistically I was relying on the magistrates seeing sense and they did.

So, if I choose not to drive for a year I'm good to go.....uber is my friend.
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:27
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QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:18) *
I made a conscious decision to do it my way as frankly I don't have the time or energy to pursue a path that would have almost certainly have taken up far more time and likely required me to consult a solicitor at some point, simplistically I was relying on the magistrates seeing sense and they did.

So, if I choose not to drive for a year I'm good to go.....uber is my friend.

Taking a case to the financial ombudsman hardly needs a solicitor, it is designed to be a simple, informal process. If at the end of it you'd got a letter from the insurance company saying that in light of the FOS's decision they accept you were insured all along, the police would almost certainly drop the case. Failing that, the CPS would have dropped it for them. Using a solicitor in a case like this would be a waste of money IMO.


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t35c0
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 16:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:18) *
I made a conscious decision to do it my way as frankly I don't have the time or energy to pursue a path that would have almost certainly have taken up far more time and likely required me to consult a solicitor at some point, simplistically I was relying on the magistrates seeing sense and they did.

So, if I choose not to drive for a year I'm good to go.....uber is my friend.

Taking a case to the financial ombudsman hardly needs a solicitor, it is designed to be a simple, informal process. If at the end of it you'd got a letter from the insurance company saying that in light of the FOS's decision they accept you were insured all along, the police would almost certainly drop the case. Failing that, the CPS would have dropped it for them. Using a solicitor in a case like this would be a waste of money IMO.


I understand that may be the case, however it's the policy document that is the 'legal insurance document', not the schedule.

So, I make a complaint to the insurer, they reply "Policy Document Only", I complain to ombudsman, it then turns into a dispute of what is and what isn't the legal document, to and fro, too and fro, drags on for months and months......and takes up increasingly stupid amounts of my time and attention (read up on something called 'deal creep') and the more time that's invested and more detail that comes out, the harder it is to bring the whole thing to a conclusion.

My, objective and rational decision, draws a line under the whole matter and absolutely minimal distraction and cost to me.

I forgot to thank you earlier for the answer to the declaration question, that was appreciated.

Worth reading the following before committing to any course of action, where once begun, you're no longer in control of either the process or eventual outcome. It'll help you take a more objective rather then emotional decision.

http://customerthink.com/sun_tzu_and_the_a...s_at_all_costs/
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:45
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QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 16:48) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:18) *
I made a conscious decision to do it my way as frankly I don't have the time or energy to pursue a path that would have almost certainly have taken up far more time and likely required me to consult a solicitor at some point, simplistically I was relying on the magistrates seeing sense and they did.

So, if I choose not to drive for a year I'm good to go.....uber is my friend.

Taking a case to the financial ombudsman hardly needs a solicitor, it is designed to be a simple, informal process. If at the end of it you'd got a letter from the insurance company saying that in light of the FOS's decision they accept you were insured all along, the police would almost certainly drop the case. Failing that, the CPS would have dropped it for them. Using a solicitor in a case like this would be a waste of money IMO.


I understand that may be the case, however it's the policy document that is the 'legal insurance document', not the schedule.

So, I make a complaint to the insurer, they reply "Policy Document Only", I complain to ombudsman, it then turns into a dispute of what is and what isn't the legal document, to and fro, too and fro, drags on for months and months......and takes up increasingly stupid amounts of my time and attention (read up on something called 'deal creep') and the more time that's invested and more detail that comes out, the harder it is to bring the whole thing to a conclusion.

None of this is applicable. The FOS will read your complaint, give the insurer 1 opportunity to reply, and them simply make a decision, there is no to and fro. I've spent many years in the financial services industry dealing with, amongst other things, complaints that are about a million time more complex than this, so I know a thing or two about how this works.

The FOS has also one other distinct advantage, i.e. that it is no required to follow the law at all. It has a statutory power to decide whatever is the fair outcome for the customer, so even if the insurance company tries to win on a technicality, the FOS can just say "Yeah but that's not really fair so we're ruling in the customer's favour anyway", not that I feel they would need to resort to that in this case. The FCA handbook can trump anything the insurance company puts in its terms and conditions.

To be honest given it would have likely avoided any court appearances at all, this might have been the course of action that would have involved the least time and effort, as potentially everything could have been solved with a couple of well drafted letters and no court appearances at all. Still, I can well understand that you might prefer to just put this all behind at this point.


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andy_foster
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:10
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I'm not sure how being advised as to what he could have done differently in the past assists the OP unless he has access to a functioning time machine.


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cp8759
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:39
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:10) *
I'm not sure how being advised as to what he could have done differently in the past assists the OP unless he has access to a functioning time machine.

The OP has made it quite clear that he's got the information he wanted. The only reason I replied is because I wouldn't want anyone in future to be discouraged form taking the suggested course of action.


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Logician
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:58
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QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 17:48) *
I understand that may be the case, however it's the policy document that is the 'legal insurance document', not the schedule.


I am not sure that is correct, the document the police should rely on is the certificate of insurance, which you have not mentioned. My certificate of insurance contains the statement "For full details of the insurance cover, and Endorsements to cover, reference should be made to the policy schedule."



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DancingDad
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 23:05
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I'm not sure the OP has picked the right question regarding declaring it to future insurance companies.
It is not when the conviction is spent but whether it is within the time scale that the insurance company ask about.
Can't remember offhand whether it is 3 or 5 years as standard nowadays but it is more then the one year OP seems to believe.
The other thing that may get interesting is that they ask for the number of points and 0 for driving without insurance could lead to questions.
Explainable but may still raise issues as it isn't "standard".
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speedfighter23
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 23:31
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QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:15) *
I was in court Monday last week for a Driving Without Insurance charge, I attended court by myself without representation.

In a nutshell, while my fully comp policy document stated one thing, the policy schedule stated something contradictory.

I was driving a friends car and while the policy schedule stated I was entitled to drive the car with third party cover and the owners permission, that wasn't stated on the Policy document itself.

The magistrates, who I thought were very sensible, stated while looking at all the paperwork, would also have thought cover was applicable and therefore accepted my guilty plea but stated due to the special circumstances they were not going to issue an endorsement and only fine me the minimum amount which is £120 + costs + surcharge.

Honestly, I'm not unhappy with this outcome as it was the best I could have hoped for given all the circumstances.

My question is, does this count as a spent conviction and do I have to declare it for insurance purposes going forward, as IMHO this was a paperwork snafu by the insurer and I don't want to get penalised going forward for their mistake.


If it is not endorsed is this even a conviction? You should have plead not guilty as your policy stated that you were insured and it is their responsibility to honor their policy statement not you!
My policy says very clearly I can drive other people's car's third party and also fully comp if i let them know before by filling in a form on the insurance app or giving them a ring beforehand with the car details

This post has been edited by speedfighter23: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 23:32


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Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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DancingDad
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 00:01
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 23:31) *
……..
If it is not endorsed is this even a conviction? ………...
Summoned, went to court, guilty plea (with mitigation), that is a conviction.
The punishment, endorsement or otherwise is the result of the conviction.
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cp8759
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 01:18
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 23:05) *
I'm not sure the OP has picked the right question regarding declaring it to future insurance companies.
It is not when the conviction is spent but whether it is within the time scale that the insurance company ask about.

The insurance company cannot ask about spent convictions, and even if it does, you don't need to disclose them. That's the whole point of the conviction being spent.


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t35c0
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 12:57
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:58) *
QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 17:48) *
I understand that may be the case, however it's the policy document that is the 'legal insurance document', not the schedule.


I am not sure that is correct, the document the police should rely on is the certificate of insurance, which you have not mentioned. My certificate of insurance contains the statement "For full details of the insurance cover, and Endorsements to cover, reference should be made to the policy schedule."


Sorry, to be clear, I was using the colloquialism Policy Document in place of Certificate of Insurance.

The schedule contradicted the Certificate of Insurance.

As I stated earlier in the thread, I'm happy with where it's ended up, purely because it draws a line under the whole issue and I can move on.

Now that I know that I only have to declare the matter for the next year it means that's the end of it.

The thought of knowingly driving without insurance is repugnant to me and to have that as a stain on my driving record, where I haven't had any endorsements for over 15 years, was terrifying. While some in the thread, understandably, would want to argue to the Nth degree on this, I have other priorities in my life that are far more important.

Thanks to all for the input.
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speedfighter23
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:20
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QUOTE (t35c0 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 12:57) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:58) *
QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 17:48) *
I understand that may be the case, however it's the policy document that is the 'legal insurance document', not the schedule.


I am not sure that is correct, the document the police should rely on is the certificate of insurance, which you have not mentioned. My certificate of insurance contains the statement "For full details of the insurance cover, and Endorsements to cover, reference should be made to the policy schedule."


Sorry, to be clear, I was using the colloquialism Policy Document in place of Certificate of Insurance.

The schedule contradicted the Certificate of Insurance.

As I stated earlier in the thread, I'm happy with where it's ended up, purely because it draws a line under the whole issue and I can move on.

Now that I know that I only have to declare the matter for the next year it means that's the end of it.

The thought of knowingly driving without insurance is repugnant to me and to have that as a stain on my driving record, where I haven't had any endorsements for over 15 years, was terrifying. While some in the thread, understandably, would want to argue to the Nth degree on this, I have other priorities in my life that are far more important.

Thanks to all for the input.


Why did you not plead not guilty?


--------------------
Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
TFL traffic contraventions 0 - speedfighter23 2
Kensington and Chelsea 0 parking contraventions - speedfighter23 1
Brighton and Hove parking 0 - speedfighter23 1
Private PCN - Private Parking Solutions Limited 0 - speedfighter23 1

Tyre Puncture Pothole Claims:
0 Buckinghamshire Council - speedfighter23 1
0 TFL - speedfighter23 1

Result Pending:

1 Islington Council tyre puncture claim
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Fredd
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:24
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:20) *
Why did you not plead not guilty?


Already covered:
QUOTE (t35c0 @ Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:18) *
I made a conscious decision to do it my way as frankly I don't have the time or energy to pursue a path that would have almost certainly have taken up far more time and likely required me to consult a solicitor at some point, simplistically I was relying on the magistrates seeing sense and they did.


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Logician
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:57
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QUOTE (t35c0 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 13:57) *
Sorry, to be clear, I was using the colloquialism Policy Document in place of Certificate of Insurance. The schedule contradicted the Certificate of Insurance. As I stated earlier in the thread, I'm happy with where it's ended up, purely because it draws a line under the whole issue and I can move on.


Fine, that is your decision, of course. Just to avoid any future confusion over terminology, you will normally have at least three documents relating to your motor insurance:

1. A policy document, which will contain all the terms and conditions applicable generally to everyone insured by the company, and probably also a list of endorsements that may be applicable.

2. A policy schedule which lists all the details of you and the vehicle insured, including which possible endorsements listed in the policy apply in your case.

3. A certificate of insurance which briefly states what insurance is in force over what period.



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LaughingLeaf
post Sat, 2 Nov 2019 - 14:53
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OP, could you tell us the insurer? It might help others with the same company reading this to check their own documents.
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t35c0
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 11:42
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QUOTE (LaughingLeaf @ Sat, 2 Nov 2019 - 14:53) *
OP, could you tell us the insurer? It might help others with the same company reading this to check their own documents.


I'd rather not name the specific insurer, however it's one of the top five so frankly everyone should check their policy.

Just to add a footnote to the above, part of the reason I chose to go the way I did was at an earlier hearing when the prosecution had tried to confirm the insurance was in place (as I believed based upon the paperwork) it was only then that I even became aware there was an issue. The magistrate at that hearing, who seemed to have experience of insurance matters, had looked at all the paperwork and 'indicated' it was a paperwork mistake, however if the insurance company were refusing to confirm there was cover then short of me suing them the court would almost be obliged to find me guilty.

So, at that point that hearing was adjourned for me to consider my options. Given what I had been told and all the circumstances I chose the path I went down and have absolutely no regrets as it has not required me to spend money on lawyers or spend silly amounts of time on this.

While I understand that people would say things along the line of "....that should be easy, because this is what is supposed to happen....", my extensive experience of anything to do with lawyers is it becomes a money pit of ridiculous proportions. I say this based upon small scale speeding tickets many years ago through multiple large scale deal financing's. Not once in all those dealings has a lawyers final bill come even within 30% of what I was told up front.

Always worth a read if you have time....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Terrible-Truth-Abo...y/dp/0688066216



This post has been edited by t35c0: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 12:03
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