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PCN from ES Parking Enforcement, no return within 4 hours, 2 different drivers visit at different times
chiefs
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:08
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Hello everyone

New to forum, seems very interesting and helpful.

I have recived a pcn from es parking enforcement, it was no return within 4 hours, however what happened was, my wife made a visit in the morning and after 3 hours i had made a visit at the same place, in manchester syemour grove iceland. (no return within 4 hours) i was completley unaare my wife had visited until pcn came through

is there anything advise on this please, whether i stand a chance to appeal.

Thank you guys
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post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:08
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:25
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Any contract to not return would be with the first driver. It cannot bind a second driver

Appeal on that basis. Don't name either driver.
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Jlc
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:47
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Absolutely no liability indeed. (Drivers form contracts, not vehicles)

Can you show there were different drivers?

They are particularly litigious and a court claim is likely. Start getting ducks in a row...

In parallel pursue the principal of the contract or any stores that can assist.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:48


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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chiefs
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 08:29
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hello guys

i appreciate yr reply

many thanks
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Half_way
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 09:08
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Has this been recorded as two visits, or is it case of "double dip" where they have recorded both visits as one long stay recorded time in for visit 1, and recorded time out as exit 2?
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chiefs
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 10:36
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Hi

first driver went in aldi around 12-44 and 2nd incident by another driver at 3;48
so yes two different visits.

thanks

This post has been edited by chiefs: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 11:29
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Jlc
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 11:41
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Yes, but are the parking company stating a long single visit or actually referring to the no return condition?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 11:44
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If it's a two vist trip then a signed statement from first driver stating that they were there at time xxxx then signed statement from 2nd driver that they were there at xxxx. If both can show appropriate receipts then so much the better.

Dear Sirs,

I am the keeper of vehicle xxx and have received your PCN xxxx

As you are no doubt aware a vehicle cannot, by any stretch of imagination, be capable of forming a contract with you and therefore the vehicle cannot possibly be in breach of any alleged contract.

I used car park xxxxxxx at about xxxx. My wife, inknown to me, had visited xxxx previously, at about xxxx therefore creating two separate contracts with neither contract being breached. You therefore cannot possibly have no claim against me as the keeper of the vehicle.

I do not expect to hear from you again on this matter other than to confirm there will be no further action taken and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours


If you can show payments by two different people then add that to the letter. Save all the documents/receipts for possible use later.

They are members of the IPC so you do not bother appealing to the IAS, where a loss is guaranteed, and ignore the inevitable debt collectors letter and wait for a possible letter before claim

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 11:45
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DancingDad
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 13:17
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Card receipts show different cards used on each occasion if any purchases made.
Would cement the different driver for each case.
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Spudandros
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 19:54
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QUOTE (chiefs @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 18:08) *
Hello everyone

New to forum, seems very interesting and helpful.

I have recived a pcn from es parking enforcement, it was no return within 4 hours, however what happened was, my wife made a visit in the morning and after 3 hours i had made a visit at the same place, in manchester syemour grove iceland. (no return within 4 hours) i was completley unaare my wife had visited until pcn came through

is there anything advise on this please, whether i stand a chance to appeal.

Thank you guys


Contact Iceland first and ask them to cancel, explaining what happened. But make sure you get someone senior.


This post has been edited by Spudandros: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 19:57
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 15:18
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The sign could have been drafted in such a way as to burden the first driver with the obligation of "procuring that" the vehicle is not returned to the parking area within three hours... But, I doubt it was drafted in that way.

Personally, I would rather not provide any driver details to a PPC, so I would proceed to respond as RK, noting that there were two drivers, neither of whom returned, so neither driver could have breached the "no return" term of the contract. Any physical evidence supporting this should be retained (athough the personal testimony of the drivers should be sufficient) for possible use in court. If the PPC believes you, they would be very unlikely to chance court.

--Churchmouse
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chiefs
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 12:56
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Hi guys

ive just recieved an email from them

as follows ----


28 August 2018


Dear Mr xxxxx

Re: Parking Charge Notice Number PCxxxxxx (Vehicle: xxxxxxx)

Site: Seymour Grove Retail Park, Manchester Issue date: 07/08/2018


APPEAL REJECTED -

Thank you for your appeal received on 17/08/2018 regarding the above detailed Parking Charge
Notice. We have reviewed the case and considered the comments that you have made. This appeal has
been considered in conjunction with the evidence stored on our enforcement system. Our records show
that your parking charge notice was correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in a way which
breaches the Terms and Conditions of Parking.


We have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:

The signage on site clearly states no return within 4 hours, by returning within 4 hours of leaving
the site you became liable for a parking charge for breaching the contractual terms and conditions.


Our Appeals process is now concluded, you may now pick one of the following options:
1. Pay the parking charge notice at the prevailing price of £60 to reach us by 11/09/2018 or £100
to reach us by 25/09/2018. Payments can be made by telephoning 01772 798999, or online at
www.espel.uk or by sending a cheque or Postal order to
the following address: Payments Department, Suite 211, City House, 131 Friargate, Preston, PR1 2EF.

2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, the Independent Appeals Service (www.theIAS.org)
provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied
with our appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service
providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection. For further information
please visit www.theias.org.

If you decide to use the Independent Appeals Service, the offer of a discount for early payment
will be withdrawn, and the full charge of £100 will apply if your appeal is rejected. Please note
that the independent adjudicator is unable to cancel a charge on grounds of mitigation and the
decision will be based on facts and evidence only.

If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery
procedures and may proceed with court action against you, for more information visit
www.espel.uk/court/.

Yours sincerely

ES Parking Enforcement Ltd Appeals Department -JM

This post has been edited by chiefs: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 15:01
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Redivi
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 13:24
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No surprise whatsoever

It doesn't matter

The purpose of the appeal was to demonstrate, in the event of court action later, that you acted reasonably and didn't ignore the Parking Notice

Don't take the risk of an appeal to the IAS that only hands ESPE a decision to wave
Simply file and ignore everything except an actual Letter Before Claim
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chiefs
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 13:45
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Many thanks

what are the chances of a court attendance, do I stand a chance of winning at all, or just pay it off, my wife scared of Bayliffs, and my kids wouldn't like them to be outside the door.

lol

thanks
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 14:15
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Gah! Why does everyone jump to bailiffs?!?

1) Low
2) pretty good, we do well above average here. Bt always a risk with litigation
3) you onmly get bailiffs if you are REALLY dumb - fail to defend a COURT CLAIM, or lose, then dont pay within the time given. It doesnt just magically happen.
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chiefs
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 14:46
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Many thanks for quick response,

what shall I do from now on, ignore there letters??

I don't know how else to prove that there were two different drivers at the time.

thanks


This post has been edited by chiefs: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 14:52
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 15:18
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QUOTE (chiefs @ Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 15:46) *
Many thanks for quick response,

what shall I do from now on, ignore there letters??

I don't know how else to prove that there were two different drivers at the time.

thanks

Yes, ignore (but retain copies of) all correspondence from now on, no matter who sends it (PPC, debt collector or their "solicitors"), UNLESS it is a "letter before claim" or court papers.

You can do nothing much on your own initiative now, except pay the PPC (if you really want to). The ball is in their court, and will be for the next 5+ years (they have six years in which to bring a breach of contract claim to court). I suppose the belt-and-braces thing to do would be to gather all of your evidence now, e.g., photographs of the signage NOW present at the site and written statements from the witnesses (the two drivers). If the PPC does decide to take you to court at some point, you would produce the witness statements and (if necessary) the witnesses, which would prove that there were two drivers, neither of which "returned" to the site, and thus, no breach of contract (by either driver).

--Churchmouse
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Jlc
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 15:20
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Witness statements from both drivers would seem to cover it...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 08:24
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Indeed, witness statements are proof!
Everyone forgets that part...
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chiefs
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 13:08
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Hi guys

Please see the highlighted area of the letter I received.


Thanks guys for yr help and advise.

This post has been edited by chiefs: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 15:04
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