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Private car park, Claim Form
Bothered&Bew...
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 12:06
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New here. I have a few general queries about a private car park ticket my son has. Fredd has advised me that you prefer to deal with alleged criminal directly. however I do feel at least partially responsible, since I did advise my son to ignore the parking ticket in the way that I have always done.
Unfortunately as I have discovered this advice is now several years out of date. My son has thrown all of the paperwork out. All we have is this Claim Form Issue date October 2nd 2018. £160.00 PC £12.67 Interest £50 legals £25 court fees Total £ 247.67
All very average. I want to check my understanding from previous posts I have read here. The company UK car park management ltd. is our tormentor, I would like to make sure I cost them as much as possible. Gladstones will obviously get paid whatever, sadly.
So I intend to defend, ask for oral, not paper only, requiring a solicitor to attend court, if I understand correctly, should I lose, the penalty is unlikely to be any more than is already claimed ? So a no lose gamble ? If I pay straight away no CCJ against my son's name ?
Am I right in identifying the Protection of freedoms act 2012 as the primary legislation for defending against these charges. ? Or is their a more recent one. I read so many posts on here, with very long and technical defenses It can I am sure confuse many a layman.
I do not have much confidence of defeating this charge, however if I can reduce the companies profits to minimum, I will settle for that. The scoundrels.

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post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 12:06
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ManxRed
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 12:22
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What is the origin of the 'charge'? e.g. non payment of P&D, overstay in free car park, parking in an unauthorised space (and if so, residential)?

The Protection of Freedoms Act is legislation that is current, and enables the parking company to pursue the keeper of a vehicle for any charge that the driver may be liable for, so do not indicate on here who was driving at the time. Presumably if your son has ignored all paperwork so far then they do not know who was driving, and they may or may not have followed the Protection of Freedoms Act criteria. Its not a strong defence point on it's own unless the keeper wasn't actually driving (do not answer this here), in which case a combination of stating that they were not driving (and evidence of being elsewhere if possible though not essential), coupled with an indication of where the parking company has failed to follow the criteria in POFA, is a start.

There is potential ammunition in the signage, depending on the reason that the charge arose, and what is written on the sign. Do you have any photos of the sign?

In small claims, the charges cannot be heavily inflated, although one party might attempt to claim additional costs if the other has behaved unreasonably, and in this case, ignoring all their letters might be construed in that way.

If your son pays within a month of judgement then no CCJ.

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 12:22


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Jlc
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 13:19
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The 'freedoms' in the PoFA was around banning clamping. As stated above it enables the parking company to pursue the keeper for the driver's unpaid parking charge - but only under strict conditions. See here.

They have probably complied, but difficult to check if the paperwork is long gone...

It's not clear who has the claim? (i.e. the keeper) But even if the claimant won, the defendant can pay within 30 days without getting an unsatisfied CCJ. (And not impacting credit record)

You may want to cause them maximum damage but that's not something you want the Judge to consider as they can award additional costs under certain conditions, i.e. 'unreasonable behaviour'.

It's hard to comment much more without knowing what the transgression was?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 13:20


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 15:21
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And if they are claiming from the keeper under POFA then the maximum they can claim is the amount on the original PCN, usually £100, so that's £60 saved so far.

The defendant writes to Gladstones demanding a copy of all the documents that intend to use in the case in order to narrow the issues between the parties. As they have raised a claim they must have the documents to hand to perform due diligence on the matter so you require the documents within 7 days.

The claim must be acknowledged immediately, well at least soon, using the details and password on the form. Nothing in the defence. This gives 33 days from date of issue to get the defence to the court.

A little bit more details wold be helpful to determine what the defence should be.

Yes, if the case is lost then paying within a month will see no CCJ recorded.

At no time identify the driver, all communication is with the keeper.

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 15:22
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cabbyman
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 16:47
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Bear in mind that, assuming he is RK, it would be your son who would have to defend this in court although you can prepare all the paperwork in his name. He must sign it.


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Bothered&Bew...
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 16:53
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Thanks guys,
Good stuff. My son paid for two hours , he thinks the original charge said he was 18 minutes late getting back. I did go and photograph the signs .
It seemed like a bog standard. 'You agree to pay £ 100 if you break the rules' It also said additional charges may be added etc.
Does anyone know, what the success rate is like for the scumbags currently ? It must have gone up quite a bit for them to send out so many claims.
And what is the value of a Gladstones solicitor. I had a small claim against BT last year they sent a barrister down from London. He lost, then asked the Judge
to reduce the claim to compensate BT, because they had his days fees to pay. Judge did not. Amused me no end.
If the loss results in a penalty of £ 200.00 I would really like to think that Gladstones charge the scumbags more.
I am preparing my defense and will be asking aforementioned scumbags for the paperwork as suggested. Anything to annoy them. Any other ideas much appreciated
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cabbyman
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 17:36
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One idea I would like to pass on:

Please would you construct proper paragraphs. Your posts are extremely difficult to read.


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:57
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QUOTE
Does anyone know, what the success rate is like for the scumbags currently ?

On MSE I know the current win rate is some 99% won by posters, as I've kept records since 2017. On here it seems similar.

But who are the PPC? Some don't use the POFA, and some are more hopeless than others.
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Bothered&Bew...
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 13:17
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The claim form says

The Defendant was driving the vehicle and/ or is the keeper of the vehicle

Does that cover their legal responsibility over the whole Driver / keeper thing ? or is there still some angle to exploit ?

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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 13:22
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Of course it doesnt

Read POFA 2012 schedule 4 para 8 (if there was a windscreen ticket) or 9 (if there wasnt one)
Thats everything the various Notices have to have BEFORE you get to a court claim.

Hows your defence going?
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Bothered&Bew...
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 16:00
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Thanks

Sorry my defense is not going that well. It was a posted ticket, not on the windscreen.

I have written to Gladstones twice, for the stuff they want to use in court. No response yet. I sent the second one recorded delivery.

I have to have the papers to the court by the 30th ? It was dated 2nd October. is it 28 days or 28 plus 5 days ?

I have put a vague statement in the defense about the company breaching a number of the clauses in the POFA document. Assuming I can elaborate later if we go to court ? I did read somewhere that as long as you mention something. you can bring it up later

I have seen a few people, saying that there defenses have been ruled as a downloaded template, because they do seem to be very similar. I can understand that.

To be honest, I don't think my son is that bothered about the £ 200. Irritated but not wanting to spend a day in court. I suspect he will want to mediate, and just pay a smaller amount.

I know this type of behavior only encourages the companies. They get something, and it hardly costs them anything. It would be better to go to court, even if we lose, it must cost the company money, but it is my son's decision.

Do you know if there is an average time between sending in the court papers and the trial date being fixed ?

There was one thing They have a 'registration of judgments' section which says. If this claim results in a judgment order against you, details will be entered in a public register, the register of judgments, orders and fines. They will then be passed to credit reference agencies, which will supply them to credit grantors and others seeking information on your financial standing.

Then in bold. This will make it difficult for you to get credit.

This is contrary to what I believe to be true and obviously designed to be intimidating. Have you come across this wording before ?

I will let you know what happens



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Redivi
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 18:36
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This is contrary to what I believe to be true and obviously designed to be intimidating. Have you come across this wording before ?

Many times

If a judgment is paid within four weeks, it's removed from the register

The best tactic is to take cash against the possibility that the case is lost

He then hands the cash to the Gladstones rep and asks him to sign a receipt

Hand the receipt to the court office and the judgment is never added to the register

He could send a warning shot by sending a copy of the letter to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority
The SRA looks after its own and won't take any action but, if it receives enough complaints, it might eventually get fed up with Gladstones
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 10:56
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Redivi - one month is the usual time limit

If there was nothing on teh screen, then Para 9 is what you need

Yes, just state they did not comply with POFA to hold the keeper liable, inclding but not limited to...

If you son pays £200 hes funding them sending another 20 letters out, at least, to people who may actually be bothered. Pensioners, those on disability, etc.
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Bothered&Bew...
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 11:28
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I appreciate that it would be best to cause UK car parking management Ltd. as much inconvenience, and of course money, as possible. And I will try to impress this on my son. But honestly the company is showing an annual PROFIT of about £300,000.00 per annum In the great scheme of things £200 up or down will not deter these near criminals.

The owner Mr Lukhbir Singh Gohler of Brighton seems to lead a chequered business life. Resigned from 4 companies Held appointments at 3 dissolved companies. Still holds two directorships. the longest with the current company since September 2010. He is obviously enjoying harassing and ripping off motorists. And making a very good living out of it.

Rest assured I will do everything in my power, to spoil his enjoyment at every opportunity. The ratbag
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 11:42
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If enough people do it, it will deter them
Same as one vote doesnt do a lot, but if noone votes ...
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Bothered&Bew...
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 16:44
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In my long running saga, I have Received the 'Notice of Proposed Allocation from the court, and Gladstones bumf with the 'papers only' and 'relatively straight forward' well documented on this site.

My son has suggested that he would rather pay than go to our nearest Crown Court for the day. To that end I have drafted an offer, which may or may not be accepted. What does anyone think ?

On a positive note, I have become something of an expert, on directing people to the PePiPoo site. Once the conversation comes up in the local, it is amazing to me, how many individuals have fallen foul of these despicable scoundrels. I realize that acquiescing to this extortion is not in keeping with the principles of this forum, and for that I unreservedly apologize. My son quite reasonably calculates that should he win and claim expenses, the saving of the £ 100 offer plus £ 100 expenses, would hardly cover, his losses for a day off work. and of course worse if he were to lose.

The appeasing capitulation I have drafted is included in full below. I would invite comments before I entrust it to the postal services.

Thanks in advance.




Dear Sir / Madam,

Thank you for your letter dated October 2018.

I must draw your attention to my previous two letters, in which I have requested the relevant paperwork, and received nothing, unless you are asserting, that the few sentences on your particulars of claim, fulfil your obligations ?

To clarify my position, even a cursory scan of previous cases, strongly suggests that I am entitled to request from you, at the very least the following.

1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether you are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether you are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, provide a copy of that contract bearing my signature. Or is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
6. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1
7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
9. Details of the additions to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

I hope you will agree that without this information, I will be at a severe disadvantage, when preparing my defence.

I note your preference, for the case to be on the papers and without the need for an oral hearing. I find myself unable to agree to this. It is my contention that it would be difficult to sufficiently outline, what I consider to be your unreasonable conduct, on paper alone.

Whilst I agree, that the costs of legal representation, is disproportionally high, in comparison to the disputed sum, and can confirm that I am no more enamoured with the prospect of funding said services, than your client is. Particularly, as I understand it, these costs cannot be recovered in the small claims court. I am therefor at a loss to understand why your client is not amenable to a compromise ? Further Internet research reveals that in the majority of cases the court disallows extra penalty charge being added to the original sum. Which would remove the £ 60 charge. Additionally most of the cases I have reviewed, successfully argue that the legal charges,
( known colloquially as a robo claims ) are dismissed or reduced, due to the fact that no legal representative is employed in drafting the standard template letter that you have issued.

Should it transpire that I am unable to make my case strongly enough, and I should lose. without the erroneous charges, previously mentioned, your total claim would be £ 137.67.

However, should I be successful, I believe I am entitled to claim my reasonable expenses, currently I believe £ 90 per day, plus 45p per mile travelling expenses and car parking charges. The total of which is probably close to the amount your client is claiming.

The Internet is awash with condemnations of your client and even more so with your company Gladstones solicitors. Some commentators claim that Gladstones lose in excess of 90 % of well defended cases. Which solely seems to concern any number of the rapacious car park management companies, which Gladstones appear to exclusively represent.

I have prepared a detailed defence based around, yours and your clients failure to comply with POFA regulations. I am optimistic, that I can at least give you a challenging argument in court.

However in the interest of expediency, I am prepared at this late stage, to make an offer of £100.00 in full and final settlement and without prejudice.



I look forward to hearing from you,



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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 22:44
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QUOTE
My son has suggested that he would rather pay than go to our nearest Crown Court for the day. To that end I have drafted an offer, which may or may not be accepted. What does anyone think ?


No. Stop panicking and trying to throw money at a scam to make it go away.

And it doesn't go to flipping Crown Court! It;s a county court room and some people don't even have to speak, if the Judge is onside!

Which court is your local one? Some are better than others.


Why doesn't he consider the simple idea (as discussed, for example, on Phoenixfreespirit's thread) of calling their bluff by disagreeing with the case being heard on the papers, filling in the DQ as if he WILL attend the local court stating his dates he can't attend, etc.

Then moving on to Witness Statement and evidence stage and making a decent job of the papers, and THEN inform the local court (after the C has paid the hearing fee) two weeks before the hearing, that he cannot attend after all and wishes it to be heard on the papers.

Your letter looks good apart from the last line:

QUOTE
However in the interest of expediency, I am prepared at this late stage, to make an offer of £100.00 in full and final settlement and without prejudice.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 07:58
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Well it does say "in preparing a defence" when you have alreayd preparED your (sons) defence
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Bothered&Bew...
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 11:20
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Well it does say preparing, I was intending to send a copy of this letter to the court, I meant it to influence the judge, in case he was unaware of how disruptive Gladstone's cowboys can be.

On the previous comments, when it said about the last line at first, I thought you meant 'I look forward to hearing from you' Which I agree is at complete variance to how I feel. But then I saw the comment concerning the £100 repeated at the bottom. I have not worked out how to do that yet.

Our local county court is Worthing. Any idea if that is a 'good or 'bad' result for us ?

If we say we will go to court, then after the fees are paid, realize we cannot attend, is it not likely that the judge will add those fees, to the costs if we lose ? Obviously not a problem if we win. I do like the idea that it will maximise the costs for UK Car Parking Management. Shame it also increases the profit for Gladstones.

I have not sent the letter yet. In anyone's experience is the £ 100.00 offer likely to be accepted if I send it ? I saw somewhere on this site, someone claiming they had an offer of £ 15 accepted. I find that hard to believe if the claimants have already paid £ 25 in court fees, and of course something is owed to Gladstones.

But then the whole process is surely financially ludicrous. Any award must be dwarfed by the costs to the claimants, the only reasonable interpretation is that the companies, consider that less people will fight them and more will pay up rather than risk court action, as long as they do keep taking people to court ? They need to maintain a reputation of being litigious ?

These people really are despicable human beings, with I suspect no redeeming qualities to mitigate their greedy and unscrupulous behaviors. Does anyone believe that the Parking (Code of practice ) Bill 2017 - 2019 currently passing through parliament will act forcefully against these parasites. I certainly hope so. Rant over
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 13:44
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Yes but the hearing fee is only £25, so its not worth considering compared to getting rid of all of it

Noone will have had a £15 offer accepted recently, by that point they thought they were going to lose in court, have costs against them so ran away with a "win"
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