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Liverpool Airport Not Parked Wholly within markings
londonteacher
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:01
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Hello everyone!

I did try to search for this but most of Liverpool Airport discussion is about stopping on the red lines.

The letter issued by VCS is for 24) NOT PARKED WHOLLY WITHIN THE MARKINGS OF A DESIGNATED PARKING BAY.

It was issued on the 23rd July. The letter arrived this morning 28th August.

advice would be much appreciated. also the car is a company pool car so multiple people drive it, so I guess I will have to find out which staff member parked it and let them know?

This post has been edited by londonteacher: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 14:03
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post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:01
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ostell
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:11
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Is this a lease car? Presumably this was a windscreen ticket. The location was within the airport?

As a lease car then paragraph 14 of POFA applies. If it is within the airport then byelaws apply and only the driver, who they do not know, can be held liable.
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londonteacher
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:15
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:11) *
Is this a lease car? Presumably this was a windscreen ticket. The location was within the airport?

As a lease car then paragraph 14 of POFA applies. If it is within the airport then byelaws apply and only the driver, who they do not know, can be held liable.


It was a windscreen ticket followed up by a letter. The car is leased to my company and the ticket arrived in the name of the limited company there are ten people with access to it.

It was parked within the airport car park.

This post has been edited by londonteacher: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:15
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ostell
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:37
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Can you post up the notice to hirer/keeper that was received please, suitably redacted. but leave dates. Just to double check that your company are not the registered keeper of the vehicle. If not did the notice arrive together with a copy of the hire particulars and the original Notice to Keeper in the name of the lease company?

Here's a link to POFA. To hold a hirer liable then they have to comply with paragraph 14, especially 14 (2) (a), to be able to hold the keeper liable. Most, including PE, fail to include those documents and hence no keeper liability. It is also byelaw land and again not relevant land and therefore there can be no keeper liability under POFA.
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londonteacher
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:58
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 10:37) *
Can you post up the notice to hirer/keeper that was received please, suitably redacted. but leave dates. Just to double check that your company are not the registered keeper of the vehicle. If not did the notice arrive together with a copy of the hire particulars and the original Notice to Keeper in the name of the lease company?

Here's a link to POFA. To hold a hirer liable then they have to comply with paragraph 14, especially 14 (2) (a), to be able to hold the keeper liable. Most, including PE, fail to include those documents and hence no keeper liability. It is also byelaw land and again not relevant land and therefore there can be no keeper liability under POFA.


the company IS the registered keeper, its a lease car but not a hire car. EDIT: I am incorrect in this. The lease company is the registered keeper.





This post has been edited by londonteacher: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 12:28
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ostell
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 11:18
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lease/hire same thing in this situation. I don't believe your company are the registered keepers, but no matter.

If those documents are not there then a letter from your company:


Sirs

Ref PCN/HN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

We are the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and are in receipt of your PCN/HN dated 23/08/2018. We have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act.

Additionly the land is is subject to Byelaws and is not relevant land for the purpose of POFA.

You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to us, the hirer/keeper.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and we will not be doing so. As a body corporate we cannot be the driver.

Any further communication with us on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.



Send this so that it arrives 2 days before 21 days after the issue date of the PCN so that they cannot try to issue a more compliant notice.

After that ignore, unless you get a letter before claim. Do not appeal to the IPC, you will lose.
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londonteacher
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 12:22
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 11:18) *
lease/hire same thing in this situation. I don't believe your company are the registered keepers, but no matter.

If those documents are not there then a letter from your company:


Sirs

Ref PCN/HN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

We are the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and are in receipt of your PCN/HN dated 23/08/2018. We have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act.

Additionly the land is is subject to Byelaws and is not relevant land for the purpose of POFA.

You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to us, the hirer/keeper.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and we will not be doing so. As a body corporate we cannot be the driver.

Any further communication with us on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.



Send this so that it arrives 2 days before 21 days after the issue date of the PCN so that they cannot try to issue a more compliant notice.

After that ignore, unless you get a letter before claim. Do not appeal to the IPC, you will lose.



ostell, You are quite correct the limited company is not the registered keeper, its the lease company. apologies for my confusion.

Thank you very much for your assistance.

kind regards!

This post has been edited by londonteacher: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 12:24
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ostell
post Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 14:45
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Just check for that lack of documentation and send at the time suggested.
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londonteacher
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:30
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received a reply.



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Sheffield Dave
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 11:09
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AJH films only potentially makes your company liable for the charge incurred by one of your drivers if the driver was acting on company business at the time of the incident - for example, if they were attending a meeting on behalf of the company at JLA. Conversely if an employee was picking up their daughter from the airport, say, then it wouldn't apply (although VCS would still try it on in court).
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 12:53
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If the company can state the driver(s) were not acting on company business, then VCS have styated that you would effectively have no liabilty.
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ostell
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 15:41
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Why did the letter mention mitigating circumstances? I can't see mitigation, just application of the regulations.

As the alleged breach was at 10 o'clock at night does your company expect your employees to be working at that time? So CPS v AJH is not applicable.

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 15:44
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londonteacher
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 16:20
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 15:41) *
Why did the letter mention mitigating circumstances? I can't see mitigation, just application of the regulations.

As the alleged breach was at 10 o'clock at night does your company expect your employees to be working at that time? So CPS v AJH is not applicable.


I sent your suggested letter without any change so don't know why they use the phrase mitigating circumstances.

the driver would not have been on company business.

This post has been edited by londonteacher: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 16:22
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ostell
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 16:31
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I think one letter back pointing out the falsehoods in their letter and telling them that they do not have any cause of action. ANd then shut up and wait.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 06:27
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Indeed, and categorically state that the drivers were not under any instruction by the company, they were going about their own private business. Their assertion that cps v ajh film applies is therefore rebutted.
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bama
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE
Why did the letter mention mitigating circumstances?


because mitigation it is a plea for leniency and is thus an admission.
Standard PPC tactic to trick people


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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