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Parking Fine Insufficient signage, PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY
mikeyhunt
post Tue, 1 Jan 2019 - 13:09
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I went to visit my my friends, when I left I had to move my one of their cars off the driveway and believing it was new years I didnt expect they would get a parking fine.

signage was insufficient their is no sign anywhere near where I was parked as seen in the image, there is also no sign on the other side of the road

Sorry i am unable to upload the evidence here, this website is too outdated to upload normal sized files
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post Tue, 1 Jan 2019 - 13:09
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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 11:10
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QUOTE (mikeyhunt @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 10:55) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 10:51) *
QUOTE (mikeyhunt @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 10:45) *
If i came from there after searching for a parking space it is possible i missed the sign


Can you say under oath to an adjudicator you drove though the alley?


Yeah for sure, i can even use the local ally cat as a witness

Just out of curiosity, why did you drive down the alley rather than the main road? Just seems a bit of an odd route to take.

However, if that's the way you went, there's clear-cut grounds of appeal.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mikeyhunt
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:03
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At first I had permission from the residents on the otherside of the road to park down their alleyway but then they told me to move it, so i went through the alley way onto the other side of the road. I have taken screenshots of alleyways entrances I took. Shall i mention that i turned my car around when i parked up?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:09
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Not staying, leaving and simply didn't bother putting theirs back on the drive.


Driving onto the road from an alleyway AFTER having driven into the area past the sign on the road in a car which HASN'T got a PCN is not really getting to grips with this problem.

So back to the plausible account ..OP IT IS IRRELEVANT how you got to the location, YOUR car didn't get a PCN, did it? wink.gif

So, no accounts to adjudicators........


It is your friend's car;

And they were home;

And they know they live in a permit only area;

And they've elected not to obtain a permit.

And they knew their car was on the road!





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nextdoor
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:13
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QUOTE
...and as for the absolute idiot who thought that placing the single 'Permit Holders..' sign so close to a right-angled bend with on-street parking on both sides and no centre-line wants their b****y bumps feeling...
Actually there are signs on both sides of the road, but they're staggered:

https://goo.gl/maps/GvM2FqxGSdK2
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hcandersen
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:18
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Thank you. This proves my point.

Signs must be placed as near as is practicable to the start of a restriction.

But there's a parking place on the left. Aha, they think, it's dangerous to place so near the junction BUT we cannot place inside a parking place so....

We'll compromise, we'll put one on the right before the restriction starts, but in a SAFE location, and then cover ourselves by placing the required gateway sign on the left where the restriction actually starts and b****r the safety implications.
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nextdoor
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:29
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Even if this was the OP's pcn rather than his friend, he's really stretching credibility that he accessed Boston Gardens via a dog-leg route along a narrow rutted alleyway, rather than simply using tarmaced roads

https://goo.gl/maps/1MCSmLdT2CN2
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Neil B
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:33
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:09) *
Not staying, leaving and simply didn't bother putting theirs back on the drive.


Driving onto the road from an alleyway AFTER having driven into the area past the sign on the road

He hasn't said that.
He was blocked in on the drive by friend's car, so moved onto the road then left.

Yes the friend probably knew as he must have handed the keys back.

Seems fairly clear both parties knew there was a restriction.

I'm sure he has your message about ultimate responsibility but for now he seems to want to take
responsibility. Not sure why but he's played a little coy over several things so far.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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TigerRob
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 14:11
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Was this on Jan 1st - a Bank holiday?

The Hounslow website (scroll down to 'Bank holiday parking') says
QUOTE
On bank holidays you can park in pay and display zones and controlled parking zones for free (except Twickenham zone R on event days).

I would expect this CPZ Zone (BM) to be covered by this statement.

Edit: Sorry - Ignore this. I see it was the 31st and not a BH.

This post has been edited by TigerRob: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 14:13
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mikeyhunt
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 16:57
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:33) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:09) *
Not staying, leaving and simply didn't bother putting theirs back on the drive.


Driving onto the road from an alleyway AFTER having driven into the area past the sign on the road

He hasn't said that.
He was blocked in on the drive by friend's car, so moved onto the road then left.

Yes the friend probably knew as he must have handed the keys back.

Seems fairly clear both parties knew there was a restriction.

I'm sure he has your message about ultimate responsibility but for now he seems to want to take
responsibility. Not sure why but he's played a little coy over several things so far.


I got the full story wrong. He was occupying the car for the day

He had permission from residents on the other side of the main road where the car was initially parked and then moved onto that road through the alleyway.

When filling it online it is saying to confirm i am the registered OWNER(not registered keeper)
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mikeyhunt
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:30
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The council has responded to my appeal.

I explained to them that I had permission from residents who live the main road to park down their alleyway;

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4951018,-...6384!8i8192

But i was then told to move by the residents so i continued thrugh the alley way onto the road where the ticket was issued, coming out of this entrance
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4942886,-...6384!8i8192


They have responded with this which looks like a defualt letter completley ignoring everything i have said are

Re: Penalty Charge Notice: NJ30518510
Traffic Management Act 2004
Vehicle Registration Number:
Date of Contravention: 31/12/2018 at 16:51
Location: BOSTON GARDENS, BRENTFORD
Thank you for writing to us regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty
Charge Notice.
Your vehicle was parked in a ‘Resident permit holders parking only past this point’ area, which
forms part of the surrounding Controlled Parking Zone. Motorists are made aware that they are
within a permit parking area by signposts positioned at each entry point to the area. In addition,
there is clear signage at the entrance to the Controlled Parking Zone informing motorists of the
restrictions in place.
It is the driver’s responsibility to be aware of any and all parking restrictions before choosing to
park at a certain location and to ensure their vehicle is parked correctly.
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking without a resident's permit that was both
valid and clearly displayed. Even if you have a permit, you have to display it so that a Civil
Enforcement Officer can see all its details.
The enclosed photos help to show why your Penalty Charge Notice was given.
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 08:25
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mikeyhunt the council will never cancel, as they won't admit their signage is faulty. However, to be honest your biggest problem is highlighted in post 26 above: your credibility is stretched almost to breaking point by your version of events. If you appeal this penalty to the tribunal, attend a personal hearing, and the adjudicator accepts your version of events, you're virtually guaranteed to win because at the end of the day, not all entrances to the permit area are properly signed. Whether the adjudicator will believe you, I have no idea.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 08:53
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If you appeal this penalty to the tribunal, attend a personal hearing,

And therein, as we have said continually, lies the rub: it is not the OP's car and how they got to their friend's, which is the sum total of the defence, is irrelevant. The OP cannot ever be a party at an adjudication hearing.


But the OP seems unwilling to accept these realities.

Anyway, OP you'd better tell your friend the options that they've got i.e. to pay the discount - presumably re-offered, although you've not said- or wait for a NTO with full penalty in play.

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mikeyhunt
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 11:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 08:25) *
mikeyhunt the council will never cancel, as they won't admit their signage is faulty. However, to be honest your biggest problem is highlighted in post 26 above: your credibility is stretched almost to breaking point by your version of events. If you appeal this penalty to the tribunal, attend a personal hearing, and the adjudicator accepts your version of events, you're virtually guaranteed to win because at the end of the day, not all entrances to the permit area are properly signed. Whether the adjudicator will believe you, I have no idea.


I was parked down my friends alleyway who lives on the main road as i was already parked in my only choice was really to drive through going straight taking a left then a right on the main road.

So as i am not the registered keeper my only option is to pay??
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DancingDad
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 11:51
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Coming to this late but having read through, unless the Owner (RK) can truthfully state that they were in no fit condition to give consent to you moving the vehicle, they are on a hiding to nothing. If they have the relevant permit they may be able to get discretion from the council and the PCN cancelled at Notice to Owner stage but I would not hold out too much hope on that. Or the consent argument without some proof.

From your point of view you have options.
You can get authorisation from owner to fight on, presumable against an assurance that you will pay if needs be... assurance to the owner.
You can pay now at discount.
You can walk away from your mate and totally ignore it, leaving them to stump up when the NTO drops.

TBH, none seem good cos I cannot see a win here unless council totally feck up.
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Neil B
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 13:40
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 08:25) *
your biggest problem is highlighted in post 26 above: your credibility is stretched almost to breaking point by your version of events.

A version of events that turned upside down in #29 and then, seemingly, back again in challenge sent.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Saleen07
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 18:42
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Hello mikeyhunt,

I’m not familiar with Brentford but having looked at google maps, the signage seems to be sufficient. Since 2016 there’s been less on street signage required by local authorities so signs on both sides of the road on the only main point of entry into the street would suffice. Your apparent local knowledge would also suggest that you are aware of the parking restrictions.

If you feel that you would be successful with an adjudicator then by all means wait until it goes that far. The adjudicator would most likely look at what signs are in place, do they comply with legislation and have any reasonable local adjustments been taken into consideration. My feeling is that everything is in place and that any appeal at that stage wouldn’t be successful.

Hope this is of some help to you.

This post has been edited by Saleen07: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 09:17
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 23:53
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QUOTE (mikeyhunt @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 11:39) *
So as i am not the registered keeper my only option is to pay??

The registered keeper can make formal representations against the Notice to Owner, but you can make formal representations on their behalf with their written permission. If formal representations are rejected, your friend (the RK) can appeal to the tribunal, and you can attend as a witness and give evidence. It will still come down to whether the adjudicator accepts your version of events as truthful.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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