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yellow Box Newham, Advice please
david76
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 19:23
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Issuing authority Newham

Date of offence 26/8/2019

date of notice 09/9/2019

Location Little Ilford Lane/Romford Rd

Contravention 31j

The only thing I remember there were works with temporary lights further ahead so traffic suddenly piled up. Can I use this as a defence? It also appears the car in front deliberately stopped??

Video..

https://streamable.com/vlznd

Any help greatly appreciated
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post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 19:23
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stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 19:37
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You charged into the box with no regard for exit and you're toast on this one as I'm sure others will agree.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 20:51
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 20:37) *
You charged into the box with no regard for exit and you're toast on this one as I'm sure others will agree.

+1
Totally bang-to-rights. The vehicle following the OP's clearly understands YBJs, and the OP would seem not to.
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david76
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 08:19
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Thanks for your opinions!

However the main idea of this forum is to fightback and there are several other yellow box PCN's who have been caught under similar circumstances.

We are in this together!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

I will post the PCN here with the hope that experts can spot any 'technical glitches' or snags tongue.gif

Have a good day everyone and Drive safe rolleyes.gif
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david76
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 16:04
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https://ibb.co/BnhTKpB

https://ibb.co/xFPCryD

https://ibb.co/H4T4sN5

https://ibb.co/m9ymXZz
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Neil B
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 16:32
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Newham PCNs are compliant.

QUOTE (david76 @ Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 09:19) *
the main idea of this forum is to fightback

Not entirely: Often we just seek the best and cheapest possible outcome in each circumstance.
We might also advise against causing yourself unnecessary work and angst where almost certain
to be fruitless.

Sorry, I agree with the others that it was a clear cut contravention.

Your only hope would be that Newham cock something up and they rarely do in these cases.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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david76
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 16:49
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Thanks Neil

Do I appeal and if so will my point that there wasn't any obstruction and sudden temporary lights further ahead stand?
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david76
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 18:59
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Will one of the experienced members have a look at the PCN and the video to suggest my best defence (if any)

There is no harm in trying is it?
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Incandescent
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 20:31
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QUOTE (david76 @ Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 19:59) *
Will one of the experienced members have a look at the PCN and the video to suggest my best defence (if any)

There is no harm in trying is it?

Three experienced members have looked now, and all agree you are bang-to-rights. A couple more should be on soon, but I doubt if they will differ.
Yes, it is a fightback forum, but it's important not to just charge willy-nilly and die on the wire. The video shows the car behind you stopped short of the box, why didn't you ? Of course you have the absolute right to appeal and to take the matter to London Tribunals, but it will be for the full PCN penalty of £130, the discount option, (£65) is lost.

If you want to avoid more PCNs for YBJs in London you need to drive more circumspectly when approaching a YBJ. These are only enforceable in London, under the LLA & TFL Act 2003, (see the top of your PCN), the relevant clauses in the Traffic Management Act 2004 have not been implemented in the rest of the country, thank goodness ! I would think virtually all YBJs in London are covered by CCTV as it is so cheap to enforce and the cash that rolls in is huge.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 20:32
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cp8759
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 21:21
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Pay the discount.


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david76
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:22
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Thanks

The reason for not stopping was there were temporary lights a little ahead which are not visible in this video. The light at the time was green so went in a hurry. I know in this video is appears I am rushing whereas the car behind stopped but if you saw the overall traffic ahead or a different video it might present a different picture.
It was this point I wanted to raise. I know you are all unanimous in your opinion which is not a good sign for me biggrin.gif

I'll appeal and post the result here. If unsuccessful we will see what else to do.


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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:24
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I was thinking why other posters were harsh on you, and I was trying to offer some sympathy to your situation. But the more I look at the video, the more I realise how badly you misjudged this.

I know it's not practical to stop before a junction, get a definate confirmation that there's space on the other side, then you drive on. It would mean everyone stops before a junction in London. It's not going to work. The way I guauge whether to enter a box junction or not is look ahead and look at the flow of traffic - does it looks like it slowing down/speeding up?. If I see traffic slowing down on the other side of the junction or cars applying their brakes when they're in the junction. I wont enter it. I'll stop and get a go ahead.

It looks to me like the grey BMW had its brakes on pretty much as soon as it entered the box. That should have been a sign for you to not enter. You have your brakes on too, but because you were tailgating the grey BMW you didn't leave yourself much room to react.

If I was in your situation, I would have gotton out of the box by going left of the grey BMW, even if it mean mounting the kerb a little bit. Do it super slow <5pmh and make sure there are no peds.

The grey BMW driver didn't help you there, I have been in that situation where I was the car in front, I saw there was no space for me and the car behind and I bank right to the side of the lane making room for the car behind to get in beside me without getting trapped in the box. Maybe they had less good will to you because of the tailgating.

Maybe you could have just done a short noticed left turn. Or just stopped on the empty space between the pedestrian crossing and the box junction - I have done that a few times. I know I'm going to be slated for this. But at the end of the day, I avoided harsh £65 fines. Would you be breaking any other driving rules if you just stopped outside the box on the left? They can only apply the rule based on the letter of the law, not the principle that you're blocking the junction. So if you're not stationary in the box, they cant enforce anything.

This post has been edited by Plywood-Enthusiast: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:41
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spaceman
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:39
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:24) *
I've been caught in box junctions a few times. Thankfully I've never received a PCN.

When you're driving all day, your concentration whaes, driving in London there are so many hazards, on junctions you're not looking at the road ahead, you're looking at your wing mirrors because bleeding cyclists and undertaking and overtaking your simultaneously. You have traffic lights and then 20 meters down you have another set of traffic lights. There's just too much to observe.

To be honest, if I was in your situation, I would have gotton out of the box by going left of the grey BMW, even if it mean mounting the kerb a little bit. Do it super slow <5pmh and make sure there are no peds.

The grey BMW driver didn't help you there, I have been in that situation where I was the car in front, I saw there was no space for me and the car behind and I bank right to the side of the lane making room for the car behind to get in beside me without getting trapped in the box.

Maybe you could have just done a short noticed left turn. Or just stopped on the empty space between the pedestrian crossing and the box junction - I have done that a few times. I know I'm going to be slated for this. But at the end of the day, I avoided harsh £65 fines. Would you be breaking any other driving rules if you just stopped outside the box on the left? They can only apply the rule based on the letter of the law, not the principle that you're blocking the junction. So if you're not stationary in the box, they cant enforce anything.


Not sure that advising the OP to mount the kerb or turn left against a no entry sign are the most inspiring words of advice that have appeared here.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:40
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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:47
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:39) *
Not sure that advising the OP to mount the kerb or turn left against a no entry sign are the most inspiring words of advice that have appeared here.


Lol, didn't see the no entry sign. I take that back, dont turn left, but there's still space to stop between the no entry line and the box. it appears that as long as you dont pass the sign, you're gold. Please refer to my PCN where I dipped into a NO entry road for a bit and reversed out, PCN was revoked. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=130084

Plenty of space between the box and the no entry sign.

Also, I would rather mount the kerb and defend myself in court over alleged "Driving without due care and attention" than get a £65 fine. It would be ridiculous to get you for that for driving at 5mph over a kerb. People get into RTC, leave permanent injuries and still dont get penalised for driving without due care and attention.

This post has been edited by Plywood-Enthusiast: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:02
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david76
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:02
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Is it possible to have a video of the road ahead to present a full defence?

I have realised that yellow box of death is so important in London. I am an Essex man and very rarely drive in London so didn't pay respect it deserved.

The car in front had been annoying me from the beginning of this road as he first overtook me from wrong side as I gave way to someone and then would deliberately slow down. My wife states there was an ambulance far behind us with blue lights which could be another reason to rush to clear and make that harsh decision!

The ambulance didn't cross this junction as it went the other way much before the junction.

All these are circumstances and I accept my mistake, would however like to challenge
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Plywood-Enthusia...
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:07
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Sorry mate, you're just digging yourself deeper, now we have elements of road rage/racing involved.

Ambulance would have been best served if you stopped well before you got anywhere near the junction so it opens the area up for ambulance to navigate through. After all you know there's temporary traffic lights up ahead.

Why not be the vanguard for the ambulance and keep the traffic back for it?
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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 09:51
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QUOTE (Plywood-Enthusiast @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 17:24) *
I know it's not practical to stop before a junction, get a definate confirmation that there's space on the other side...

To be honest I drove all the way through central London from end to end a few weeks ago, and I noticed that is exactly how everybody seems to approach YBJs, it's quite noticeable because outside of London drivers just try and make sure they don't block the road, the difference in driving style is quite noticeable.

So it may not be the most practical approach, but as far as I can tell it's what everybody does. I suppose it's the most practical way of avoiding donations to the various highway authorities.

QUOTE (david76 @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:22) *
The reason for not stopping was there were temporary lights a little ahead which are not visible in this video. The light at the time was green so went in a hurry. I know in this video is appears I am rushing whereas the car behind stopped but if you saw the overall traffic ahead or a different video it might present a different picture.
It was this point I wanted to raise. I know you are all unanimous in your opinion which is not a good sign for me biggrin.gif

I'll appeal and post the result here. If unsuccessful we will see what else to do.

You just risk turning a £65 penalty into a £130 one, nothing you say is a defence in law and Newham won't cancel the charge just to be nice to you. Your only hope would be that they make some procedural mistake in the enforcement process, but it's one hell of a gamble.


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david76
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 15:26
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The last few replies have been more respectful! Thanks

If i appeal informally, does the grace period stand?

I know all these are not a defence, under the present circumstances what would be my best defence?

seems lots of people with YBJ PCN's have got the PCN either cancelled or overturned on one context or the other despite being caught under similar circumstances.

I can post few examples to see if that helps my cause
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Neil B
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 15:39
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QUOTE (david76 @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 16:26) *
seems lots of people with YBJ PCN's have got the PCN either cancelled or overturned on one context or the other despite being caught under similar circumstances.

I can post few examples to see if that helps my cause

If you like but I've seen many hundreds and none like yours win, other than odd council cock ups in response.

You obviosly feel strongly but, as I said, we're trying to save you pointless work and angst.
QUOTE (david76 @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 16:26) *
If i appeal informally, does the grace period stand?

Newham generally re-offer it if you do so by 22/9 in your case.
Not an informal 'appeal' but formal representations.
But, again, to what end?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 19:08
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QUOTE (david76 @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 16:26) *
I know all these are not a defence, under the present circumstances what would be my best defence?

You don't have one, all you can do is ask Newham to exercise discretion to cancel. If you had any defence, even one that had a remote chance of success, we would have told you. I suppose if nothing else you'll get a bit more time to pay.


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