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Representing myself in court for speeding
MDUK
post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 11:58
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OK, case in a nutshell.

At the beginning of lockdown I drove down to London to pick up my adult son and bring him home. I got caught going over 100mph in both directions.(108 and 106) two different police forces. I has sent me the SJPN, the other has advised they will do but I don't know how long that may take to come through. I have a clean licence. I do have some mitigation for that would probably help me with a hardship plea. I spoke to 3 solicitors before I thought to come on here.

Solicitor 1

Ask for them to be rolled up and dealt with at the same court.

£3000


Solicitor 2

Treat them separate, hope for short ban on first case and 6 points on second

£2000


Solicitor 3

An argument for both, cheapest way, plead guilty on your SJPN but explain why it will affect you and hope for short ban. If it then goes to court, I will be advised and can bring a brief in for that.

£450 for written assistance, another £450 if he attends court. Plus £900 for the other one so between £900 and £1350


I am skint thanks to co-vid. I can't really afford any of them but if I do it myself might cost me more in the long run. I'm guilty, I'm at fault, I'm just trying to mitigate the impact on me and my family. So as i see it I have 3 choices, and it's those I'm looking for some advice on please.

Option 1

Get a solicitor to to it all in which case I'd go for solicitor 2

Option 2 Get a solicitor to help with paperwork and attend if neccessary, in which case solicitor number 2

Option 3, do the SJPN online myself and only get a solicitor involved if they want me in court, in which case solicitor number 2.

How risky is it doing it myself?

This post has been edited by MDUK: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 11:58
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post Wed, 15 Jul 2020 - 11:58
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MDUK
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:04
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@Jlc thanks, i think it would have been ideal if the first offence had been a ban, i responded by letter and was not asked to attend court. Maybe attending would have allowed me to speak but i understand you can only make a plea once? And i got 6 points.

i think i would rather drive around on 12 points and drive like an angel than get banned, not that it will be my choice

i have written an EHP and considered impact on others, i dont know how much detail to go into on the financials, some people took comapany accounts and letters or character from clients and bosses. Not sure i can (or want) to do that

This post has been edited by MDUK: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:05
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Logician
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 23:45
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QUOTE (MDUK @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:04) *
@Jlc thanks, i think it would have been ideal if the first offence had been a ban, i responded by letter and was not asked to attend court. Maybe attending would have allowed me to speak but i understand you can only make a plea once? And i got 6 points.

i think i would rather drive around on 12 points and drive like an angel than get banned, not that it will be my choice

i have written an EHP and considered impact on others, i dont know how much detail to go into on the financials, some people took comapany accounts and letters or character from clients and bosses. Not sure i can (or want) to do that



Once you get to 12 points you become a totter and will be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can put forward an EH argument that is accepted. The driving like an exceptionally careful angel level comes at 11 points, which requires you to be given 5 points for the second offence of 106mph which is not going to happen.

The advantage of taking along company accounts is that it shows you are taking it seriously and that it really matters to you. In your statement you can pick out figures to present, making sure they relate, the most important probably being net profit but depending on whether you pay yourself a salary or rely on dividends. Letter from people who rely on your driving for one reason or another are helpful, character references are of no value whatsoever.

As a magistrate, I once heard two EH arguments on the same day, Driver 1 said that he was the chairman of a company situated in the middle of nowhere, with no means of access other than by road, so he needed his licence to get there. As we questioned him it emerged that he no longer went in every day, because his son now ran the company day to day. He lived near to his son, so when he did need to go in, his son often gave him a lift. To his surprise we did not find EH. Driver 2 ran a somewhat fringe business dealing with pallets, he drove round in a small truck buying pallets for cash from a small businesses who had received deliveries on them and other sources. He also delivered pallets to his customers. He had two guys working in the yard stacking pallets and repairing those that needed it, and a lady who worked in the office keeping track. He wanted to tell us how he got to 12 points, even though he had been advised we could not take that into account. He had got 6 points for no insurance when the lady in the office forgot to renew the truck policy, he had 3 for using his mobile and 3 for speeding. It was a cash business relying on trust and it was not feasible for anyone else to do his part of it, it made just enough money to pay modest wages to everyone including himself, but not enough to pay for a driver to take him about. He produced his accounts and a letter from his accountants stating this was his only source of income. The evidence was that the business could not survive if he could not drive and his three employees would be out of work as well as himself. We did find EH.
Driver 1 had a case that was entirely superficial and collapsed when examined, Driver 2 had a substantial case supported by good evidence. Think on't.


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The Rookie
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 07:22
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 23:45) *
The driving like an exceptionally careful angel level comes at 11 points

As 11 or 12 would see him facing a 6 month disqual I fail to see a difference (except on 12 he would have burnt his EH bridge already so to speak*, so in a worse scenario than on 11)


*A particular EH argument can only be used once every 3 years, a DIFFERENT EH argument could in theory be used but is rarely available. As these cae close together wyou will be one offence from a 6 month disqual' for the 3 years from first offence date.


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TMC Towcester
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 08:54
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Logician's examples really sum it up. The OP said s/he visits clients, there's pretty much nowhere in the UK that can't be reached by public transport and local taxis -yes it will be expensive and time consuming, but punishment is meant to have an element of punishment! However if the company's sales are very conditional on having products with you (particularly large prohibited, hazardous etc etc) there may be an angle.

Any loss of employment (to others) has got to solely reflect any ban - not a downturn due to (e.g.) Covid etc

You've not said what sort of business you own? That may help the experts on here (which I'm not) frame/suggest something.
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MDUK
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:48
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 23:45) *
QUOTE (MDUK @ Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 22:04) *
@Jlc thanks, i think it would have been ideal if the first offence had been a ban, i responded by letter and was not asked to attend court. Maybe attending would have allowed me to speak but i understand you can only make a plea once? And i got 6 points.

i think i would rather drive around on 12 points and drive like an angel than get banned, not that it will be my choice

i have written an EHP and considered impact on others, i dont know how much detail to go into on the financials, some people took comapany accounts and letters or character from clients and bosses. Not sure i can (or want) to do that



Once you get to 12 points you become a totter and will be disqualified for a minimum of 6 months, unless you can put forward an EH argument that is accepted. The driving like an exceptionally careful angel level comes at 11 points, which requires you to be given 5 points for the second offence of 106mph which is not going to happen.

The advantage of taking along company accounts is that it shows you are taking it seriously and that it really matters to you. In your statement you can pick out figures to present, making sure they relate, the most important probably being net profit but depending on whether you pay yourself a salary or rely on dividends. Letter from people who rely on your driving for one reason or another are helpful, character references are of no value whatsoever.

As a magistrate, I once heard two EH arguments on the same day, Driver 1 said that he was the chairman of a company situated in the middle of nowhere, with no means of access other than by road, so he needed his licence to get there. As we questioned him it emerged that he no longer went in every day, because his son now ran the company day to day. He lived near to his son, so when he did need to go in, his son often gave him a lift. To his surprise we did not find EH. Driver 2 ran a somewhat fringe business dealing with pallets, he drove round in a small truck buying pallets for cash from a small businesses who had received deliveries on them and other sources. He also delivered pallets to his customers. He had two guys working in the yard stacking pallets and repairing those that needed it, and a lady who worked in the office keeping track. He wanted to tell us how he got to 12 points, even though he had been advised we could not take that into account. He had got 6 points for no insurance when the lady in the office forgot to renew the truck policy, he had 3 for using his mobile and 3 for speeding. It was a cash business relying on trust and it was not feasible for anyone else to do his part of it, it made just enough money to pay modest wages to everyone including himself, but not enough to pay for a driver to take him about. He produced his accounts and a letter from his accountants stating this was his only source of income. The evidence was that the business could not survive if he could not drive and his three employees would be out of work as well as himself. We did find EH.
Driver 1 had a case that was entirely superficial and collapsed when examined, Driver 2 had a substantial case supported by good evidence. Think on't.


Thank you so much for that detailed response, i am going to see if i can get someone from the business to write about their concerns about me losing my licence and i will go through my accounts to see what to hightight

do i submit supporting letters prior to my court date or just turn up with them and my own letter?
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Logician
post Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 12:24
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QUOTE (MDUK @ Fri, 15 Jan 2021 - 10:48) *
Thank you so much for that detailed response, i am going to see if i can get someone from the business to write about their concerns about me losing my licence and i will go through my accounts to see what to hightight

do i submit supporting letters prior to my court date or just turn up with them and my own letter?


Do not submit anything in advance, no one can consider it prior to the court date anyway and it could fail to be put in with the bundle for you. Anything you want to hand over in writing take 5 copies, one for each magistrate, one for the legal advisor and one for the prosecution, the original for yourself of courae.


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MDUK
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 11:45
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Thanks for your advice everyone. The court clerk seemed surprised i didnt have a solicitor, asked if i had sought legal advice and if i still wanted to proceed. i had prepared thanks to the advice on here so was comfortable i had done want i could.

charges were read and i was asked if i wanted to say anything. I asked to read the statement i had prepared, which i did.

At the end of this the clerk said he needed to make me aware that "extreme hardship had to mean just that". i responded that my statement was about impact on others, not about me. the two magistrates conferred very briefly. The magistrate asked what i earnt. conferred with his colleague then read his judgement.

6 points
£400 fine (plus costs etc)

I consider myself very lucky, so thank you to everyone that replied and those that gave examples of statements they had used.

thank you very much

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Billy Nommates
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 15:01
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So you've got 12 points in total now, you haven't said if they accepted your EH Plea or whether you've got a totting ban

This post has been edited by Billy Nommates: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 15:02
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MDUK
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 15:31
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i have 12 points, no ban.
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Gerfc1
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 16:00
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QUOTE (MDUK @ Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 15:31) *
i have 12 points, no ban.


Well done. I bet you are pleased with this.
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Logician
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 16:19
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That's a good result, you obviously wrote a good statement.

You will have to go very carefully now, if you get any more points you will again be a totter and cannot use the same EH argument again for three years.



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MDUK
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 17:47
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Absolutely, i fully intend to stay on the right side of the law.
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speedfighter23
post Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 21:00
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Congratulations!


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Police Speeding Fines - Police 1 - speedfighter23 0
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Result Pending:

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MDUK
post Mon, 18 Jan 2021 - 18:13
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Sat, 16 Jan 2021 - 21:00) *
Congratulations!


thank you
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