Bus Lane PCN - A5 Cricklewood Broadway Junction with Kara Way, 34 - Being in a bus lane |
Bus Lane PCN - A5 Cricklewood Broadway Junction with Kara Way, 34 - Being in a bus lane |
Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 09:23
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and was recommended it by a friend who sad that you may be able to help.
I have recently starting riding a scooter in London and have been issued with 2 bus lane ticket penalties. the worst thing is that theyre not even 1 minute apart in time! I will post photos of the 2 PCNs here below I really hope someone can help me fight this as its really disappointing Barnet have issued 2 tickets. I did honestly think that scooters can go in all bus lanes. It is such a lot of money that I just cant afford right now. Thank you in advance for any help or tips you may have. images of the PCN letters https://ibb.co/kM0D7JF https://ibb.co/74F8htv https://ibb.co/PC5x55P https://ibb.co/GnKW3vr https://ibb.co/mXmtBMR https://ibb.co/HXn5DBY This post has been edited by PinkVespaGirl: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 09:34 |
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Mon, 21 Sep 2020 - 09:23
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Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 15:14
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,305 |
I did honestly think that scooters can go in all bus lanes. Sadly no, as you are learning the hard way. TFL's website states that Motorcycles are allowed into bus lanes on most of the Capital's red routes. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes...%20road%20users. In summary, Transport for London manages the main roads (e.g. the A3, the A24, the A4 etc) while the other roads are managed by the local councils. People more familiar with the details can elaborate but this the gist. In fact, the rules for motorcycles on bus lanes are so incredibly confusing that one can be forgiven for wondering if they are intentionally so with the aim of catching out motorcyclists! Many bus lane signs are hidden by foliage, tilted at weird angles that make them unreadable, or are always hidden by double decker busses. Also, it is not uncommon to have rules which change a couple of time over a short stretch. Look on street view: at the beginning of York road, just south east of Wandsworth bridge, motorcycles are not allowed in the first 150 yards or so of the bus lane, but are allowed after that. Why on earth? And it's certainly not the only example. |
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Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 08:38
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#22
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 1,668 Joined: 9 Nov 2008 From: Doldrums Member No.: 23,903 |
Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. Surely section 20(1) and 20(4) are the more relevant sections This post has been edited by Mayhem007: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 08:40 -------------------- STAND UP FOR YOURSELF OR YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING
Ultracrepadarion - A person who offers an opinion on a subject they know nothing about. |
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Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 14:41
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. Surely section 20(1) and 20(4) are the more relevant sections Those are the sections referenced by the LLA 1996, and the tribunal is going to need proper spoon feeding on this one. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:30
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,159 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
that "If the penalty remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle, who will then have 28 days beginning with the date of this Penalty Charge Notice to make formal representations".
Unfortunately, it also states prominently on page 1: If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period beginning with the date on which the Penalty Charge Notice was served, an Enforcement Notice may be served by the council on the person appearing to be the owner of the vehicle. The Enforcement Notice will allow representations to be made on the following grounds:.. IMO, it is better to recognise this point but to add that the reference on page ** is still misleading because it is the only statement which specifies, wrongly as it happens, the time period for the owner to make representations. Taking the two statements together it cannot but be concluded that the owner must make representations before the expiry of the 28-day period. The recipient of the PCN must therefore reason that they must make their own representations within a very truncated period so as to allow the authority sufficient time to respond and, if applicable, serve an Enforcement Notice on the owner leaving them only the rump of the initial 28-day period in which to make representations. I am certain that confusing procedure is not the one prescribed in law, therefore the PCN is thoroughly confusing. |
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Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 18:45
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Fair point HCA, let's see if we hear back from PinkVespaGirl
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:01
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
Send this, it is an informal representation so no need to be overly technical or precise (Yes I am trying to trip up the council - no apologies for this): --------------- Dear London Borough of Barnet, I am writing in regard to PCNs XXXXX and YYYYY. Firstly, I dispute liability because two PCNs have been issued to me for driving in a single bus lane, indeed the video for the second PCN is taken merely seconds after the first one and in the circumstances, the penalty demanded is excessive. Secondly, the PCN is confusing and misleading as it states that "If the penalty remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle, who will then have 28 days beginning with the date of this Penalty Charge Notice to make formal representations". However if the Enforcement Notice is not sent until after 28 days have passed from the date of service of the PCN, this implies that by the time the Enforcement Notice arrives, the opportunity to make representations against it will have already expires. Please would you confirm whether formal representations need to be made before the Enforcement Notice is received, in order to avoid missing the 28 day deadline from the date of the PCN? If this is the case, please could you consider these as my formal representations. Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. Thank you very much for this brilliant draft CP. Sorry for the late reply, I've been very unwell. In light of the recent responses (thank you HCA), should I add anything else to the representation before sending off? Would it be wise to use this draft for the appeal against my other PCNs? It was under the same circumstances - same location, just 5 days apart. This post has been edited by PinkVespaGirl: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:02 |
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Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 11:21
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Hold on how many PCNs do you have in total at this location?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 12:30
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Yes the OP has a couple more - I think a different location but similar scenario - see:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=136041 |
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Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 16:30
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
Hold on how many PCNs do you have in total at this location? I received 2 more, just a few days apart, in the same locations. This was all before I posted here. Yes the OP has a couple more - I think a different location but similar scenario - see: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=136041 They're actually the same location, just double checked. Two PCNs were sent for the same contravention. They are also 4 days apart. |
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Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 16:49
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Please list the PCNs numbers, the date of contravention and the date of issue for each of the 4 PCNs.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 2 Oct 2020 - 21:30
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
Please list the PCNs numbers, the date of contravention and the date of issue for each of the 4 PCNs. Hi CP, They are AG37558680A and AG37586785. Date of notice: 18th September date of contravention: 11th September AG37602688 and AG37601732 date of notice: 23 September date of contravention: 15th September Shall I hold off on sending my reply then? Thanks, Pink Vespa Girl |
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Sat, 3 Oct 2020 - 21:18
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Send two sets of reps:
QUOTE Dear London Borough of Barnet, I am writing in regard to PCNs AG37558680A and AG37586785. Firstly, I dispute liability because two PCNs have been issued to me for driving in a single bus lane, indeed the video for the second PCN is taken merely seconds after the first one and in the circumstances, the penalty demanded is excessive. Secondly, the PCN is confusing and misleading as it states that "If the penalty remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle, who will then have 28 days beginning with the date of this Penalty Charge Notice to make formal representations". However if the Enforcement Notice is not sent until after 28 days have passed from the date of service of the PCN, this implies that by the time the Enforcement Notice arrives, the opportunity to make representations against it will have already expires. Please would you confirm whether formal representations need to be made before the Enforcement Notice is received, in order to avoid missing the 28 day deadline from the date of the PCN? If this is the case, please could you consider these as my formal representations. Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. QUOTE Dear London Borough of Barnet, I am writing in regard to PCNs AG37602688 and AG37601732. Firstly, I dispute liability because two PCNs have been issued to me for driving in a single bus lane, indeed the video for the second PCN is taken merely seconds after the first one and in the circumstances, the penalty demanded is excessive. Secondly, the PCN is confusing and misleading as it states that "If the penalty remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle, who will then have 28 days beginning with the date of this Penalty Charge Notice to make formal representations". However if the Enforcement Notice is not sent until after 28 days have passed from the date of service of the PCN, this implies that by the time the Enforcement Notice arrives, the opportunity to make representations against it will have already expires. Please would you confirm whether formal representations need to be made before the Enforcement Notice is received, in order to avoid missing the 28 day deadline from the date of the PCN? If this is the case, please could you consider these as my formal representations. Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. Also message a moderator and ask them to merge your other thread with this one. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 10:15
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
Send two sets of reps: QUOTE Dear London Borough of Barnet, I am writing in regard to PCNs AG37558680A and AG37586785. Firstly, I dispute liability because two PCNs have been issued to me for driving in a single bus lane, indeed the video for the second PCN is taken merely seconds after the first one and in the circumstances, the penalty demanded is excessive. Secondly, the PCN is confusing and misleading as it states that "If the penalty remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle, who will then have 28 days beginning with the date of this Penalty Charge Notice to make formal representations". However if the Enforcement Notice is not sent until after 28 days have passed from the date of service of the PCN, this implies that by the time the Enforcement Notice arrives, the opportunity to make representations against it will have already expires. Please would you confirm whether formal representations need to be made before the Enforcement Notice is received, in order to avoid missing the 28 day deadline from the date of the PCN? If this is the case, please could you consider these as my formal representations. Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. QUOTE Dear London Borough of Barnet, I am writing in regard to PCNs AG37602688 and AG37601732. Firstly, I dispute liability because two PCNs have been issued to me for driving in a single bus lane, indeed the video for the second PCN is taken merely seconds after the first one and in the circumstances, the penalty demanded is excessive. Secondly, the PCN is confusing and misleading as it states that "If the penalty remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle, who will then have 28 days beginning with the date of this Penalty Charge Notice to make formal representations". However if the Enforcement Notice is not sent until after 28 days have passed from the date of service of the PCN, this implies that by the time the Enforcement Notice arrives, the opportunity to make representations against it will have already expires. Please would you confirm whether formal representations need to be made before the Enforcement Notice is received, in order to avoid missing the 28 day deadline from the date of the PCN? If this is the case, please could you consider these as my formal representations. Finally, please would you provide evidence that the camera equipment used in this instance is a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or under regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of section 3(1) of London Local Authorities Act 1996. Also message a moderator and ask them to merge your other thread with this one. Thanks SO much CP! I have sent everything to Brent and am now just waiting to hear back from them |
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Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 08:58
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
I assume you mean Barnet.
In any case you needed to get the first informal challenge in before the 2 weeks. However the best option may be to pay one of them at the discount rate then contest the others, or try to get them to drop them all as a continuation of the same incident, as you didn't receive the PCN for the first day until after the second day had been done. If you contact the person known as "Mr Mustard" (and I will see if I can pull out his contact details but you can search them) he may well assist in getting the 3 others dropped but might not be successful in getting all of them dropped. Still paying £65 is a lot better than paying £260 or more. |
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Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 12:20
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
I assume you mean Barnet. In any case you needed to get the first informal challenge in before the 2 weeks. However the best option may be to pay one of them at the discount rate then contest the others, or try to get them to drop them all as a continuation of the same incident, as you didn't receive the PCN for the first day until after the second day had been done. If you contact the person known as "Mr Mustard" (and I will see if I can pull out his contact details but you can search them) he may well assist in getting the 3 others dropped but might not be successful in getting all of them dropped. Still paying £65 is a lot better than paying £260 or more. I can't believe it - Barnet have replied rejecting all my PCN appeals! I will upload a photo of the letter here: https://imgur.com/a/m8p7ABG Is there any way at all, that we can re-challenge? |
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Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 12:34
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I assume you mean Barnet. In any case you needed to get the first informal challenge in before the 2 weeks. However the best option may be to pay one of them at the discount rate then contest the others, or try to get them to drop them all as a continuation of the same incident, as you didn't receive the PCN for the first day until after the second day had been done. If you contact the person known as "Mr Mustard" (and I will see if I can pull out his contact details but you can search them) he may well assist in getting the 3 others dropped but might not be successful in getting all of them dropped. Still paying £65 is a lot better than paying £260 or more. I can't believe it - Barnet have replied rejecting all my PCN appeals! I will upload a photo of the letter here: https://imgur.com/a/m8p7ABG Is there any way at all, that we can re-challenge? Yes you can appeal to the tribunal one of us will help with this -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 10 Oct 2020 - 15:59
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Not so fast, first you must wait to receive an Enforcement Notice for each of the PCNs, at which point you can make formal representations to the council. I can't help but note there were three substantive points to your representations, and the council has ignored two of them.
Also if you're up for it, I think we should require the council officers to attend the tribunal appeal to be subjected to cross-examination, this is a statutory right than is seldom if ever used and frankly I doubt they'd ever bother to turn up. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 10 Oct 2020 - 16:04
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Not so fast, first you must wait to receive an Enforcement Notice for each of the PCNs, at which point you can make formal representations to the council. I can't help but note there were three substantive points to your representations, and the council has ignored two of them. Also if you're up for it, I think we should require the council officers to attend the tribunal appeal to be subjected to cross-examination, this is a statutory right than is seldom if ever used and frankly I doubt they'd ever bother to turn up. one of us would have to represent -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 11:21
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21 Sep 2020 From: London Member No.: 109,831 |
Not so fast, first you must wait to receive an Enforcement Notice for each of the PCNs, at which point you can make formal representations to the council. I can't help but note there were three substantive points to your representations, and the council has ignored two of them. Also if you're up for it, I think we should require the council officers to attend the tribunal appeal to be subjected to cross-examination, this is a statutory right than is seldom if ever used and frankly I doubt they'd ever bother to turn up. one of us would have to represent Ok thank you all for your messages of action, I have also messaged Mustard Man who you recommended and he is looking over the letters. I just don't know what to do now, immediately in the short term. Do I wait for them to reach out to me, or go back to them saying I want to re-challenge this at the Tribunal? Thank you all for your help, I really do need it! |
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Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 20:31
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Unless you want to pay, all you need to do is wait for the Enforcement Notices.
Also if you're up for it, I think we should require the council officers to attend the tribunal appeal to be subjected to cross-examination, this is a statutory right than is seldom if ever used and frankly I doubt they'd ever bother to turn up. one of us would have to represent Well I'm sure that can be arranged -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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