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PCN - using work van
timmi13
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 00:02
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Hi Guys

Hoping the Pepipoo family can help

So a driver parked their work van opposite their driveway on a parking bay which they have been doing for years - however to their surprise his work has notified them of a PCN they received and that they have to pay a fine (as attached)

Normally the driver would ignore a PCN but as its a work vehicle he can't really ignore and hence on here for help please :-)

Since receiving the PCN, the driver has found out that the housing association have recently asked ES Parking Enforcement to start ticketing vehicles who don't have a permit - (the driver has never had a permit as never needed one in the past and has parked in the bays for years with no issues)

Attached is the PCN the driver has received - however the driver has taken photos of the sign (as attached) and the leafs are covering the sign - surely that is scope for the company to rescind the fine as the notice is not clearly signposted (see the PCN photos and see the photo attached) - also attached is a photo of the sign from another location just for information purposes

Therefore can any kind soul help the driver out and advise what best course of action he can take - the driver has until 8th August before the fine turns into £100 from £60 so any help will be really appreciated

Kind Regards

Timmi

This post has been edited by timmi13: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 12:04
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post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 00:02
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Dave65
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 08:21
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First edit your post and remove anything that may indicate who drove the vehicle. Only refer to "the driver" did this or that.

The signage looks to be forbidding signage and only allows permit holders only, others would be trespassers.

Regulars will follow.

Hope the rubbish is not yours!
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Jlc
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 09:13
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Ignoring is not a good idea. Especially not this company as it will almost certainly result in a court claim.

They won’t accept an appeal but obscured signage might assist in a court defence. What is clear is that you shouldn’t park their without a permit. If you continue then any argument over the signage will be diminished. But that’s only one sign obscured?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 10:04
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Your company write back to ES and inform that you were the keeper of the vehicle at the time. They have removed liability from themselves.

You should hopefully get your own Notice to Keeper. They may try to say that your employer is liable but I presume you weren't on company business and therefore therefore there is no liability.

The PCN is not POFA compliant, it is missing, amongst other things, the required warning of keeper liability, POFA 9 (2) (f) and therefore there can be no keeper liability.

You will mention to them that there is no clear signage, as their own photographs show. Later investigation shows that the sign is prohibiting in nature as there is no offer of a contract to park to non permit holders and therefore without a contact there can be no charge. Claiming that a contract exists when parking is forbidden is perverse.

P.S. it's not a fine, it's a speculative invoice for an alleged breach of contract that was agreed to be paid. Private companies cannot issue fines.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 10:06
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Barkley
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 10:42
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What connection do you have with the land - are you an owner that didn’t get notification of the introduced scheme, or have you simply used it to park (and possibly assisting residents in needing to employ draconian measures)?


--------------------
- Barkley

1 - 0 Glasgow City Council

1 - 0 East Dunbartonshire Council
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ostell
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 10:55
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What does your lease say about parking and the requirement to display a permit.
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timmi13
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 20:48
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@Dave65 - done thanks....only housing residents with permits can prk their...as the driver owns his property he isn't entitled to a permit...this change has only happened recently

And nope the rubbish isn't the drivers lol

@JLC the driver cant ignore due to a work vehicle getting the PCN so needs to write a response ASAP

@ostell the drivers company has advised for the driver to deal with it simply and appeal the fine if necessary

@Barkley @ostell - there is no connection with the land and the driver quite simply....and the lease doesn't mention anything about displaying a permit


Would any of you be kind enough to send a draft copy the driver can forward to the parking enforcement company?

Many thanks

Timmi
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 06:56
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So your company transfers liability to you as the keeper, best option, or they send the following, on the assumption the company is a limited company:

Dear Sirs,

We have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to us, the keeper.

As a body corporate we could not have been driving and as there is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and we will not be doing so.

We do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and our details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc


First class mail with free proof of posting from a post office.

Unfortunately they will reject the appeal and offer you the IAS as an "independent" appeal service. They are not independent being run by the same people and solicitors that run their trade association.

There is 3 separate legal entities involved here:

the registered keeper: your company
the keeper: you
the driver: we don't want to know.

After that everything is ignored but they may issue a court claim, which must be responded to. As a business any hearing will be at the claimants home court, if the action is against you, an individual, then any proceedings will be transferred to your local court. A distinct advantage.

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 06:59
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The Slithy Tove
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 07:58
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 07:56) *
So your company transfers liability to you as the keeper, best option, or they send the following, on the assumption the company is a limited company

To go with the latter approach, you need to have a very accommodating employer who really understands the state of play and is willing to put up with the subsequent hassle that will follow. If the company transfers liability, make sure they state the OP is the keeper, and not the driver.
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timmi13
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 09:16
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Hi

The driver has only started with the company recently so using the latter approach will not be an option

Will find out if the company can transfer liability with the OP as the keeper and take from there

Thanks
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Dave65
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 09:41
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As the property is owned is there a parking space offered with the property?

Does the lease mention anything about parking?
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timmi13
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 12:34
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I have confirmed that where the driver parked the van - it is totally separate from the driver's driveway which any car can park

The 2 car parking spaces the driver has been advised are owned by the Housing association

Nevertheless will try to find information on the lease for people who own their property

Thanks
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 15:37
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Your company CAN name you as the keeper and the parking company should write to you and remove any liability from your employers.

As said they must name you as the keeper. They cannot name you as the driver as they weren't there at the time.

There may be a little hassle but POFA is clear: it is the keeper who is liable

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 15:39
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timmi13
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 15:44
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Just got this reply from my work company:


Good afternoon,

Unfortunately you cannot be named as the 'keeper' of the vehicle, as this would take ownership of the vehicle away from the company.

All vehicle notices, fines and penalties are managed and stored by Fleet and then sent out to the manager/ driver of the vehicle to act upon themselves.

If you wish to appeal the car parking notice, details can be found on the original email, along with payment details.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.



Any other ideas now as I wouldn't be able to kick up a fuss with the company?
Can we do something about the prohibiting sign possibly?

Thanks

Timmi
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Jlc
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 15:50
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QUOTE (timmi13 @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:44) *
Unfortunately you cannot be named as the 'keeper' of the vehicle, as this would take ownership of the vehicle away from the company.

laugh.gif

QUOTE (timmi13 @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:44) *
Can we do something about the prohibiting sign possibly?

Only in a court defence.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ManxRed
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 15:51
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QUOTE (timmi13 @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:44) *
Unfortunately you cannot be named as the 'keeper' of the vehicle, as this would take ownership of the vehicle away from the company.


rolleyes.gif

Oh dear.



--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:44
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You can tell them that they are, and will always remain, the registered keeper of the vehicle. The keeper is the person who has day to day control of the vehicle. I would suggest that Fleet Management don't really know there job. Get them to look at the V5 document for the vehicle. It states "this is not proof of ownership of the vehicle"

Perhaps a polite explanation to whoever wrote that.letter. point out that in the case of hire companies the hire companies remain registered keep whilst the hirer is the legal keeper

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:50
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timmi13
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 08:54
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I've had a conversation with Fleet management and despite mentioning what you said Ostell they advised that what they put in the email from yesterday is the process if any of their drivers receive a ticket / PCN etc and unfortunately they wouldn't be willing to take my request any further

So that avenue seems to be closed for me - which is just my luck

Is there another avenue the driver can argue his case by appealing?

Thanks
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Dave65
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 09:20
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If the driver is named then it looks like poor hidden signage and forbidding signage offering no contract to non permit holders.
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ostell
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 09:29
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Very frustrating, the process is wrong but we must follow the process. Is this a large company?

OK, there's nothing much that can be done until you receive your own letter from the parking company

Or perhaps take the initiative , as you have the NTK, and write to ES as the keeper of vehicle xxxx that received NTK xxxxx. Appeal on the facts that no contract could be formed with the driver as the signs were were hidden and unreadable (there were 2 signs there) . In any case the sign, when seen at another location is a forbidding sign and is not offering a contract to non permit holders. Get hold of the PCN and post it on here and hopefully may get more reasons to appeal

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 09:36
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