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Hend-held speed trap - Obstructing a Police Officer, The law regarding warning other drivers
busybusy
post Sun, 29 Nov 2020 - 12:40
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Hi All,

Close to my home, I now have a PCSO who spends an hour a week with a hand-held gun catching speeding cars.

The road is an A road in a semi-rural location, 30mph at this location due to the large detached houses on both sides of the road. There are verges and a footpath on one side which is used occasionally, typically by dog walkers. There are usually no parked cars on the road.

The 30mph section begins with a roundabout which is then straight for 160m followed by a shallow bend of about 35 degrees. 200m on from this in a straight line is where PCSO stands on the footpath in plain view wearing a high-vis jacket.

He is there during daylight hours and so far only dry, clear days. This is the Cheshire Constabulary.

I have watched him operating, and he waits until he hears a car coming, raises his gun and then records the car as it appears from round the bend.

I know (from the conversation below) that traffic tends to travel at 'either 30mph or 40mph'. I also know he typically catches 60 drivers per hour (presumably travelling between 35 and 40).

A few weeks ago, having seen him in place, I positioned a cardboard sign just prior to the bend, at about 140m from the roundabout. The sign read "SLOW SPEED CAM".

I saw he could tell the traffic was being warned (and so much slower) and he was on his radio. After he left, I went to retrieve the sign to find it had already been removed.

Next time I figured I needed something which could not be removed. I parked my car at about 115m from the roundabout and put a sign in the back window. It read "SLOW CAMERA".

Not surprisingly, the PCSO plus an officer soon called at my house and rang the door bell. Repeatedly. The CCTV intercom shows two policemen, wearing masks, one with black gloves on repeatedly ringing. It looked intimidating.

Unfortunately I was not at home having walked the long way back home and, having arrived via a different entrance I was in the back garden. I happened to notice them after some time and spoke to them over my gates.

To cut a long conversation short, I was asked whether it was my car, why I had done what I had etc. The PCSO was courteous and so was I. He told me I was "Obstructing him in the exercising of his duties" and although it was ok for me to have a sign there when he was not there, I was not to if he was in position.

After a long chat, I agreed to remove the car and he went on his way as his shift was over. biggrin.gif

Now, from my understanding of the law (R v Glendinning 2005), I am only obstructing him in his duties if I was aware of a vehicle speeding and then cause it to slow down.

In this case, I am not even there and so cannot selectively apply actions. In addition, since this is just after a roundabout, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that a car is speeding prior to reading the sign and altering their speed.

My questions:

1. Is my understanding of the law correct? Is my case law research up to date?

2. Is there a better wording for the sign to avoid 'obstructing': eg. SPEED CAM 30MPH

3. Should I park the car (safely) closer to the roundabout? At what distance?

Thanks for any help and advice.

Worst case, I have saved 50-100 drivers from tickets but I would like to continue to spoil his fun. Having previously been issues a NIP by Greater Manchester Police for travelling at 49 in a 40 on a dual carriageway 1 week prior to the speed limit increasing to 50, I have formed an opinion of this game and since I am now in the position to take some action, I have made it my mission.
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post Sun, 29 Nov 2020 - 12:40
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rosturra
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:08
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 23:26) *
This thread reminds me of a similar tale...


I recall reading about a trial to stop speeding through villages.

The gist.

Cars approaching village met wth 30mph limiters. Little effect.

So Speed detectors installed. Which instead of flashing 'Slow down' or whatever on a dot matrix board ahead, as you see in U.K, triggered a red traffic light ahead.

Drivers don't tend to run red lights so stop. Possibly camera protected too. Hence drivers delayed.

Drivers soon learn that driving through village within speed limit is quickest! Everyone's a winner.

This post has been edited by rosturra: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:24
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DancingDad
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:53
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:08) *
So Speed detectors installed. Which instead of flashing 'Slow down' or whatever on a dot matrix board ahead, as you see in U.K,....

Walsall have Speed boards installed that not only flash slow down and show your speed but also give your VRM.... that concentrates the mind wonderfully.
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Atomic Tomato
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 10:02
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:08) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 23:26) *
This thread reminds me of a similar tale...


I recall reading about a trial to stop speeding through villages.

The gist.

Cars approaching village met wth 30mph limiters. Little effect.

So Speed detectors installed. Which instead of flashing 'Slow down' or whatever on a dot matrix board ahead, as you see in U.K, triggered a red traffic light ahead.

Drivers don't tend to run red lights so stop. Possibly camera protected too. Hence drivers delayed.

Drivers soon learn that driving through village within speed limit is quickest! Everyone's a winner.


They do (or at least did 20+ years ago) this in Spain. I can confirm it worked for me!

Only 1 issue, it doesn't raise any money

This post has been edited by Atomic Tomato: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 10:03
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TMC Towcester
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 11:32
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:53) *
QUOTE (rosturra @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:08) *
So Speed detectors installed. Which instead of flashing 'Slow down' or whatever on a dot matrix board ahead, as you see in U.K,....

Walsall have Speed boards installed that not only flash slow down and show your speed but also give your VRM.... that concentrates the mind wonderfully.


Yeah, but that's to try and stop people accelerating to get out of Walsall?
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cp8759
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 12:24
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 20:08) *
You cannot put *any* sign, cardboard or otherwise, on any public road, that would be an unlawful obstruction of the highway.

On what basis would it be an obstruction?

Highways Act 1980 section 137? Although it's been replaced by the new TSM, I understand this part of Traffic Advisory Leaflet 01/13 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...ign-clutter.pdf to still be an accurate summary of the legal position:

Traffic signs in use on the highway must either be
prescribed by the Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions (TSRGD) as amended, or be
specially authorised by the Secretary of State, or
the Scottish or Welsh Governments. Signs that
are neither prescribed nor authorised are unlawful
obstructions on the highway and should be
removed.


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TryOut
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 17:09
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QUOTE (busybusy @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 16:09) *
Thanks everyone for your replies.

mods - sorry for posting in the wrong forum and thank you for relocating the thread.

Entertaining though it is, I didn't really want this to turn into a discussion over the morality of my actions or of the deployment of a PCSO for speed enforcement. I merely mentioned he was a PCSO to present the facts.

There was always going to be a discussion on the morality of the matter because the nature of your proposal. What else were you expecting?
QUOTE (busybusy @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 16:09) *
My beef here is that his deployment is to maximise convictions/revenue rather than for road safety. He told me that he is contracted to one hour per week spent with his speed gun. Due to some sort of historic administration that I didn't really grasp he is able to be deployed on only three sections of road in his area. One of them is a short section with no bends and I have never seen him there. For the past four weeks he has stood in the same place on the same road.
His positioning is such that he is able to secure a speed reading (and therefore conviction and revenue) before the driver is aware of his presence. His gun is raised for every approaching car regardless of speed.

His positions are determined by analysing the safety of the operator and the safety of the traffic. There are no restrictions to where he can operate apart from the practical and the safe locations. This may of course dictate that on this road there are 3 identified locations that meet those requirements.
He can measure every vehicle if he wants to. There are no restrictions placed upon him that prevent that.
QUOTE (busybusy @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 16:09) *
Over the past seven years there have been zero road accidents due to excessive speed on the road he is operating on. I take the point that perhaps the signage needs improving. The roundabout just prior to this section is 30mph but there is a 60 road on the other side of it.

There doesn’t have to be any accidents. It is perverse to expect that enforcement ONLY occurs after there are collisions and injuries. The police and highways authorities are criticised if they always act after the event or too late, Here they may well have identified that the speed of traffic is unacceptably high so are acting before some clown who thinks he knows better charges off the side of the road.
QUOTE (busybusy @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 16:09) *
Having been on a speed awareness course in the past (which was successful in slowing me down over the longer term) I remember being told:

'Contrary to popular belief, the police are not out there to indiscriminately catch people speeding. Speed limits are set, and cameras are placed where there is a need to reduce or control the speed and the police do not go out of their way to hide them. Where there are cameras, there are signs warning of them."

That is certainly not my experience here.

I have yet to meet a speed awareness course instructor that has sufficient knowledge of police practice to be able to make any comment of this type. Your quote suggests you have not met one either. While the comment is not far from the situation, it is nothing more than an assumption.
QUOTE (busybusy @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 16:09) *
Do I take it that Glendinning 2005 is the most up to date case relating to this type of 'obstructing'?

Glendinning 2005 was a judgement from the High Court which backed the appeal judgement against the original conviction. It was brought by the DPP in an attempt to overturn the appeal judgement that the lorry driver was not obstructing the officers. The appeal (which won in overturning the original conviction) stated "..there was no case for the respondent to answer on the ground that there was no evidence that any motorist in the vicinity at whom any warning might have been directed, was committing, or was likely to commit, a speeding offence."

The High Court upheld this judgement which, unless the law has since been changed, looks pretty watertight where there is no evidence that the vehicle being warned is speeding.

Obstructing would be:

1. You know there is a speed trap ahead.
2. You see a vehicle which is speeding and therefore will be caught.
3. You warn the speeding vehicle to slow down in an attempt for them to avoid being caught.

Not obstructing could be:

1. You know there is a speed trap ahead.
2. You warn all approaching traffic there is a speed trap.

..although if there is evidence you knew one of the vehicles was speeding, you are now obstructing.

However, as has already been said, there are often signs before speed cameras. This would back up the case for indiscriminate signage to be ok.

If, by your action, you are preventing the police from making an “unobstructed” speed measurement of a driver and vehicle, then you are obstructing the officer. Your obstruction is in the form of altering the behaviour of the driver before the officer has had a chance to make the intended speed measurement.
QUOTE (busybusy @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 16:09) *
Now, on to using 'SLOW' in a warning sign. Perhaps dodgier ground here as there is an implication that you are attempting to slow the traffic to the speed limit - otherwise why would you want to slow them?

I think it would be safer, as has been suggested, to use a speed camera and a 30 sign. It would be interesting to see if the police would remove this type of sign if placed on an existing pole.

Why are you trying to place signs? If you think the speed limit is wrong then contact the Highways Authority and suggest a change with reasons. Drivers are only supposed to drive at speeds up to and including the speed limit. Whether they driver faster or not has got nothing to do with you and nor has any form of enforcement.
The result of your interference is likely to cause the police to enforce so neither you or any driver sees them. How will that satisfy you and your speedy friends?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 18:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 12:24) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 20:08) *
You cannot put *any* sign, cardboard or otherwise, on any public road, that would be an unlawful obstruction of the highway.

On what basis would it be an obstruction?

Highways Act 1980 section 137? Although it's been replaced by the new TSM, I understand this part of Traffic Advisory Leaflet 01/13 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...ign-clutter.pdf to still be an accurate summary of the legal position:

Traffic signs in use on the highway must either be
prescribed by the Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions (TSRGD) as amended, or be
specially authorised by the Secretary of State, or
the Scottish or Welsh Governments. Signs that
are neither prescribed nor authorised are unlawful
obstructions on the highway and should be
removed.


Whilst I take due regard of the opinion of the DfT, I’m not convinced the offence is made out in respect of a small sign placed on a lamp post.


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cp8759
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 20:52
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 18:48) *
Whilst I take due regard of the opinion of the DfT, I’m not convinced the offence is made out in respect of a small sign placed on a lamp post.

The sign could be an obstruction to a pedestrian who happens to want to walk close to the lamp post?

There might not be an case law on the matter (I've not looked) but quite a few highway authorities consider unauthorised signs to be an obstruction of the highway and use their powers to remove them and penalise offenders, there's even some guidance that discretion should be exercised not to enforce against signs for local village fates etc..

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 20:53


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southpaw82
post Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 21:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 18:48) *
Whilst I take due regard of the opinion of the DfT, I’m not convinced the offence is made out in respect of a small sign placed on a lamp post.

The sign could be an obstruction to a pedestrian who happens to want to walk close to the lamp post?

There might not be an case law on the matter (I've not looked) but quite a few highway authorities consider unauthorised signs to be an obstruction of the highway and use their powers to remove them and penalise offenders, there's even some guidance that discretion should be exercised not to enforce against signs for local village fates etc..

I can understand a sandwich-board type sign placed on the pavement etc but I fail to see how a small roundel placed on a lamp post would be ab obstruction. That's not really a matter of case law as much as applying common sense and the law as it stands.


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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 11:11
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 21:13) *
I can understand a sandwich-board type sign placed on the pavement etc but I fail to see how a small roundel placed on a lamp post would be ab obstruction. That's not really a matter of case law as much as applying common sense and the law as it stands.

Maybe so but wording of section 132(1) would seem sufficiently broad to cover that anyway https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/132


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southpaw82
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 13:10
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 11:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 21:13) *
I can understand a sandwich-board type sign placed on the pavement etc but I fail to see how a small roundel placed on a lamp post would be ab obstruction. That's not really a matter of case law as much as applying common sense and the law as it stands.

Maybe so but wording of section 132(1) would seem sufficiently broad to cover that anyway https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/132

So not obstruction then?


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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 15:50
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 13:10) *
So not obstruction then?

I don't know, a court may well hold that any unauthorised object placed on the highway amounts to an obstruction, after all one could argue that a sign, no matter how small, prevents the public from freely passing and re-passing very close to the street lighting column it is attached to. I'm not saying it definitely is an obstruction, but I also wouldn't advise anyone that it's definitely not an unlawful obstruction (or to adopt your wording, I'm not convinced it's not an obstruction).

Given section 132 the original point remains regardless, you cannot place any unauthorised sign or marking of any size or description on the highway without committing an offence, so the window of a vehicle seems like the more law-abiding approach for out OP.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 15:53


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DancingDad
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 16:15
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It seems a strange world where one can park a large object like a car (restrictions permitting) but cannot put a small sign on a tree or lampost for fear of causing an obstruction.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 18:56
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 16:15) *
It seems a strange world where one can park a large object like a car (restrictions permitting) but cannot put a small sign on a tree or lampost for fear of causing an obstruction.

It’s not an obstruction.


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Gerfc1
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 19:02
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QUOTE (Atomic Tomato @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 10:02) *
QUOTE (rosturra @ Tue, 1 Dec 2020 - 09:08) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 30 Nov 2020 - 23:26) *
This thread reminds me of a similar tale...


I recall reading about a trial to stop speeding through villages.

The gist.

Cars approaching village met wth 30mph limiters. Little effect.

So Speed detectors installed. Which instead of flashing 'Slow down' or whatever on a dot matrix board ahead, as you see in U.K, triggered a red traffic light ahead.

Drivers don't tend to run red lights so stop. Possibly camera protected too. Hence drivers delayed.

Drivers soon learn that driving through village within speed limit is quickest! Everyone's a winner.


They do (or at least did 20+ years ago) this in Spain. I can confirm it worked for me!

Only 1 issue, it doesn't raise any money



There is a similar event in Coupar Angus, there are two set of traffic lights at the Forfar end, they repeatly changes to red very quickly even there are no traffic on side roads. Very often the traffic light can change to red for half a second and then change to green. I think it is quite effective.

A few year ago a person was killed on that road and there used to have a dummy policeman there with lots of 30mph signs before the traffic lights were installled.
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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 21:06
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 16:15) *
It seems a strange world where one can park a large object like a car (restrictions permitting) but cannot put a small sign on a tree or lampost for fear of causing an obstruction.

But there is specific statutory authority that allows a car to be on the road, as a car is licensed under VERA 1994.


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DancingDad
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 23:11
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 21:06) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 16:15) *
It seems a strange world where one can park a large object like a car (restrictions permitting) but cannot put a small sign on a tree or lampost for fear of causing an obstruction.

But there is specific statutory authority that allows a car to be on the road, as a car is licensed under VERA 1994.

Legalities notwithstanding, which is the larger obstruction?
Yes, I understand that size doesn't matter but it's still a strange world.
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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 23:36
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 23:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 21:06) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 2 Dec 2020 - 16:15) *
It seems a strange world where one can park a large object like a car (restrictions permitting) but cannot put a small sign on a tree or lampost for fear of causing an obstruction.

But there is specific statutory authority that allows a car to be on the road, as a car is licensed under VERA 1994.

Legalities notwithstanding, which is the larger obstruction?
Yes, I understand that size doesn't matter but it's still a strange world.

Not really, Parliament has legislated that as a general rule cars can be parked on the roads, but has given highway authorities all the powers they need to regulate such parking, so that parked cars do not become an uncontrollable problem.


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southpaw82
post Thu, 3 Dec 2020 - 10:29
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What about pedal cycles?


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cp8759
post Thu, 3 Dec 2020 - 18:53
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 3 Dec 2020 - 10:29) *
What about pedal cycles?

You could probably use the reasonable excuse defence, though of course it would depend on the circumstances.


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