PCN issued by council - contravention 16 |
PCN issued by council - contravention 16 |
Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 04:27
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
Hi All
I recently received a PCN from Haringey Council for a Car Club car on Montague Road N15 where my car had to be towed and i was charged £265 for Contravention 16 - Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly. The car in question has a valid residence permit for the area. I had parked on Montague Road N15 at around 2 am at night (i have proof of night time parking via receipts from car club- Drive Now)- it was pitch dark (there are street lamps only in intersections of this road and they are extremely dim) and I couldn’t see any signs around, the only sign i could see is a resident permit holders only on the opposite street. I later realised from my PCN that the bay was a business permit holders only bay and the sign was upto 4-5 car lengths away under a tree. The sign pole was black and the face was turned in the opposite direction when viewed from where I had parked (can be verified in google maps) which would almost be impossible to see in the dark. What annoys me is that the area is a residential area and the bay where i parked my car is the only bay which is a business permit holders only bay. All the resident permit holders only signs are placed in the beginning and end of bays however i felt that this particular bay, perhaps sneakily and on purpose had been obscured and purposely not placed in the beginning and end of bays like all the other signs in the road and area. I have attached pics that the CEO took and some google images of the area. Could you please advice if its worth an appeal and worth taking it to the adjudicator in case the appeal fails? Many thanks!!! This post has been edited by Parker1994: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:32 |
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Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 04:27
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Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 19:06
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
Hi everyone
Apologies for pestering but is there anyone who knows about the laws regarding receiving evidence late. I was genuinely awaiting the councils reply to counter against their arguments if they had any but I received all the evidence from them literally 36 hours before the hearing. Surely they have put me in a position of disadvantage as I havent even able to upload or had the time to upload any evidence for my case. please help!!! |
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 11:03
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
Just came back from the adjudicator and he said that the appeal was refused but he would grant me adjournment as I received evidence late from haringey and i took up the offer of adjournment. He basically said none of the three points in the vehicle removal regulations applied to my case and thus my vehicle was subject to immediate removal. I have 14 days now to gather any evidence.
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Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 11:51
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
The adjudicator basically pulled up legislation in front of me and showed me the following:
"(3) The power conferred by paragraph (2) is not exercisable where the vehicle concerned is in a parking place and a penalty charge notice has been served as mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) in respect of a contravention consisting of, or arising out of, a failure— (a)to pay a parking charge with respect to the vehicle; (b)properly to display a ticket or parking device; or ©to remove the vehicle from the parking place by the end of the period for which the appropriate charge was paid, until the appropriate period has elapsed since the giving of that penalty charge notice in respect of the contravention." He said that because I was parked in a business permit bay, none of the points in a, b or c applies to me. But my PCN says the my contravention code is "16: Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required" I thought point b applies to me but the adjudicator said none of the points apply and thus my vehicle was subject to immediate removal. I dont understand. |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 13:02
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
What's the case number?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 14:46
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
My case number is 219047927A
This is what I received in my email. https://ibb.co/9Z6GXKt The adjudicator hasn’t mentioned our discussion when I met him in his report yet. |
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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 - 16:03
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Go onto https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and log in under "Track or update my appeal", there will be PDF copies of all the council's evidence. You need to download it and put it up on here.
I would recommend you use a file sharing site like google drive, dropbox or one drive, as there will be far too much stuff for you to upload the files to ibb.co individually. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 20:38
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
Go onto https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and log in under "Track or update my appeal", there will be PDF copies of all the council's evidence. You need to download it and put it up on here. I would recommend you use a file sharing site like google drive, dropbox or one drive, as there will be far too much stuff for you to upload the files to ibb.co individually. Hi CP Here is the link to the files. Thanks again!! https://drive.google.com/open?id=1O7StwPpaO...3BxSCB5GCjxANJ3 |
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Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:56
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Draft appeal: http://bit.ly/36xFXQ3
Download, replace the bit in red with your real name, change the text to black and save as a PDF. Then upload to the tribunal website and you're good to go. In principle, this should be an easy win, but if the adjudicator has had a knock on the head or something there's not much we can do. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 09:15
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
Thanks for that CP. That is awesome! Will let you know how that goes.
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Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 00:48
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
I forgot to mention that I asked the adjudicator about the council not presenting or uploading any PCN related docs within 7 days of the notice of my appeal amounting to procedural impropriety, he said that the adjudicator has powers within the laws to extend any time limits and thus he would be exercising that and would allow the case to go forward even after the council uploaded the PCN related docs 19 days late. I dont understand why he was hell bent on making sure that he could refuse the appeal before I expressed my will to adjourn the hearing as i received the evidence pack late. He even gave me a 5 minute lecture on how the laws are the same for everyone whether its me or the council (clearly not).
Anyways I have uploaded your draft of appeal on the tribunal website and I was wondering if adding the following doc (attached) would be appropriate to support my case better. Please let me know!!
Attached File(s)
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Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 20:17
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I think it would be much better to upload this in its entirety https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1498...%20practice.pdf and ask the adjudicator to read page 5 where it says:
Any vehicle issued with a PCN for the following contravention codes (16, 22, and 30) may be removed 30 minutes after PCN issue, except for persistent evaders where the vehicle may be removed 15 minutes after PCN issue. Don't reference documents from Southwark or any other council, they're not really relevant. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 22 Dec 2019 - 08:29
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
I’ve received this from the adjudicator.
https://ibb.co/jWKrRnM Looks like its postponed again because the adjudicator wants a reply from the council regarding the code of conduct document but it looks like he’s hellbent on not applying/interpreting the laws correctly. |
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Sun, 22 Dec 2019 - 10:00
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,158 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The council's NOR reference is correct as regards legislation ( Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Amendment Regs refer)
(3) The power conferred by paragraph (2) is not exercisable where the vehicle concerned is in a parking place and a penalty charge notice has been served as mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) in respect of a contravention consisting of, or arising out of, a failure— (a)to pay a parking charge with respect to the vehicle; (b)properly to display a ticket or parking device; or ©to remove the vehicle from the parking place by the end of the period for which the appropriate charge was paid, But this is not what's in the policy we've seen and which has been presented to the adj. But how does he or we know it's the up-to-date policy? His referral will find out. Wouldn't it have been so much simpler, and wasted less of the OP's time - ironically what the cunning plan was designed to achieve - if the OP had put this in their evidence right at the start thereby challenging the authority on this point before the hearing and before submitting their final evidence. Thrust, parry, riposte, not parry, riposte. Yet another example of the 'full details to follow' approach failing..apart from the fact that this ploy was kicked into the long grass anyway by the adj. This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 - 10:18 |
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Mon, 23 Dec 2019 - 03:04
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
@hcandersen I'm sorry I didn't see the post where you'd written your proposed grounds of appeal?
@Parker1994 what's the name of the adjudicator? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 08:12
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 12 Sep 2019 Member No.: 105,695 |
Hi cp and everyone
Thanks for your help. I received my towing charges back. My adjudicators name was Michael Burke. What’s interesting is the adjudicator used the code of conduct to allow the appeal (which I believe has no legal authority, correct me if i am wrong) instead of applying the rule of law. What’s interesting is that he mentioned that i shouldn't infer that 30 minutes grace period is allowed for my circumstances. Heres the ruling in full: https://ibb.co/vqcFDpb |
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Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 20:05
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
What’s interesting is the adjudicator used the code of conduct to allow the appeal (which I believe has no legal authority, correct me if i am wrong) instead of applying the rule of law. That's not quite correct. A code of conduct is not legally binding, and creates no legal rights. However if a public authority creates a policy, it must follow that policy unless there are exceptional circumstances which justify a departure for that policy, simply because an authority cannot create a policy and then behave arbitrarily. This is because all public authorities must act fairly, and acting in an arbitrary manner, for example by targeting you for no particular reason or for an improper reason, is contrary to the rule of law. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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