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Blue Badge and Parking Ticket Redbridge, Redbridge Parking ticket again
Raxy
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 14:23
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Hi Guys,

My dad got a parking ticket at redbridge outside his house where he parks every day 365 days a week,
We currently have a yellow line restriction from 2pm - 3pm and during this time he will put his blue badge on.

The issue is that outside this restriction there is also a P sign which tells you to park on the pavement with all 4 wheels on,

The ticket we have got is
Parked with one or more whees on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway.

I am slightly confused, as the blue badge will override the yellow line restriction and we are now following the rules of the road which is to keep all 4 wheels on the pavement as the road is too narrow to park off pavement.

Also the same signs are on the road in other places and there are designated marked bays which seem to not have a ticket put on them. (each warden is unclear what the rules are).
however have the same signs to suggest there is a restriction. I am unclear how to take this forward
I have written to Redbridge to say it is unfair for a disabled person to get into the house but not sure if I can do anything here?


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post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 14:23
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 14:44
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This is a council PCN so it needs to be in the council forum I will ask a moderator to move it.

In the meantime post up the pCN and council photos


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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 15:42
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 14:44) *
In the meantime post up the pCN and council photos

+1.

In theory there might be a council resolution that allows part-time footway parking (the GLCGPA does not preclude this), but we can be 99% sure it does not exist, at least not in those terms.


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DancingDad
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 15:43
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Yes, PCN and a streetview link please.

Not seen this combination of signs before though cannot see why they cannot coincide.

Strictly speaking, the BB does not allow footway parking but there is a large case for discretion here.
Those sort of limited time waiting restrictions are designed to stop commuter parking, not residents and certainly not BB holders
Whether the council will apply discretion is another matter.

I wonder if the required resolution details the times that footway parking is allowed or disallowed ??
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stamfordman
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 15:46
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CEO being a huge pain here - what are they thinking. This must surely be won on discretion.

I'll have a look for the order. I think we can forget the resolution.

Post the PCN.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 15:54
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Raxy
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 15:58
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Hi All,

I found a traffic warden who said:

In a marked bay that overrides the restriction.
If you have a blue badge during 2-3pm to keep two wheels on and 2 wheels off if you believe it is a narrow road.

Attached is the PCN and the appeal rejection. I was tempted to ask my councillor. I do not understand once every X months they decide to give us a ticket.

Streetviw is;
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Crown+R...#33;4d0.0873613

This post has been edited by Raxy: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:00
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stamfordman
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:18
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Council pics and GSV. Are they really saying the OP must move the car onto the carriageway between 2-3pm?

I think maybe it was given because the car was a tad too far onto pavement?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5861895,0.0...6384!8i8192








This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:21
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Raxy
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:29
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But then the PCN should say that?

I am really confused what the law is on this one in terms of blue badge narrow roads and restrictions.

how does a marked bay also overrule the restriction times of the P sign?

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hcandersen
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:52
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After 12 years of enforcing the TMA(and even more under the RTA) and 40+ years of the General Purposes Act and 4 years of the Traffic Signs regs, they still don't understand!

It's lockdown, so spend some time on a Spot the Difference game:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

(Part 1 and Item 4 of Part 4 )


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

(Part 2, Item 12).

Schedule 4 deals with designated parking places marked with 'white panel' signs. These form the regular parking place signs of a blue P on a WHITE background.

Schedule 5 deals with area restrictions and the referenced diagrams are as seen i.e. wholly BLUE.

And what have the council done?

They've mixed the two indiscriminately. They may not. (there are actually two regular wholly blue footway parking signs in the turning head end of Crown Road).

So, what do the signs in the photo mean?
1. A parking place has been designated and situated wholly on the footway. It is part-time;
2. During the complementary hours there is a waiting restriction.

In combination what do they convey during the restricted waiting hours?
That waiting anywhere, whether on the carriageway or on the footway, is not permitted unless a WAITING exemption applies.
It does apply.
You cannot lose at adjudication.

(and for good measure, the so-called parking place - the buffoons don't know it's a parking place, they think it's an area footway parking sign, but that's their problem - isn't marked as required anyway i.e. marked as per Part 4, Item 6 in Schedule 7 above)

What a total f***-up

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DancingDad
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:53
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The signs make it clear that you cannot park on the footway between the hours of 2-3pm weekdays.
The rejection does not help at all in explaining why the PCN, template rejection.
It is correct that the BB does not help with footway parking.

I'm not in agreement that it is because too far onto the footway, the obvious "allowed" parking area is on the differing paving and at worst, a fraction of the tyre over, not a chance that an adjudicator would find that "too far"

@Stamford, why forget the resolution?
IT either says that footway parking is allowed at appropriate times or it doesn't.
I'm of the opinion that it likely doesn't but obviously cannot be certain.
But that there should be one to allow parking and signage is certain and that signage is only valid if backed by a resolution.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:56
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QUOTE (Raxy @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 16:29) *
But then the PCN should say that?

I am really confused what the law is on this one in terms of blue badge narrow roads and restrictions.

how does a marked bay also overrule the restriction times of the P sign?


The only thing that needs consideration is not what the sign says because that is a no waiting sign so if you contravened that the contravention would be 01 parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours , but you are exempted from the no waiting by way of the BB so then you look at the P sign and that tells you to park on the pavement so with the BB exemption in play that's what you did. And it is the correct thing to do

If they wanted to disallow the exemption they needed DYL with no loading blips and as cP says a part time resolution disapplying the footway parking ban and there is no way they will have that


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hcandersen
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 17:06
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The signs make it clear that you cannot park on the footway between the hours of 2-3pm weekdays.

With respect, they do not.

There are no parking place markings therefore no parking place and therefore the parking place sign has no effect (markings then signs) the prevailing permission is as per the effect of the wholly blue sign in the turning headi.e. parking is permitted on the footway.

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DancingDad
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 17:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 17:06) *
The signs make it clear that you cannot park on the footway between the hours of 2-3pm weekdays.

With respect, they do not.

There are no parking place markings therefore no parking place and therefore the parking place sign has no effect (markings then signs) the prevailing permission is as per the effect of the wholly blue sign in the turning headi.e. parking is permitted on the footway.


I'm sure you will not take it the wrong way but tosh and balderdash.
The default position in London is that footway parking is not allowed.
This may be altered by resolution and if so, relevant signs or lines are required to show.
If the council want to restrict this to specific areas, they must mark those areas and include something to that effect on the signs.
In that respect I agree with you.

But there is no restriction to a marked area and nothing to say that on the signs, that doesn't mean that the sign has no effect.
The default is that you cannot park on the footway.
The sign shows that you can, it is as simple as that.
But also shows a time period, not a conventional but one that is one allowed under the regulations.
The only issue I have is that is referring to a time on the yellow sign but would an adjudicator damn it for that?

To me the signs are clear, footway parking is permitted except between 2-3pm weekdays and I have no problem with that.

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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 18:21
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Let's focus on helpful advice for the OP rather than academic debates.

Raxy, is the V5C in your name and is the address up to date?


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DancingDad
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 19:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 18:21) *
Let's focus on helpful advice for the OP rather than academic debates.


Hardly academic when it is the validity of the sign in question.
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 19:35
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 19:31) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 18:21) *
Let's focus on helpful advice for the OP rather than academic debates.


Hardly academic when it is the validity of the sign in question.

I meant academic in the sense that while it may be a perfectly valid discussion, it's not telling the OP much that they can act on.

For what it's worth my view is the signage is inadequate no matter what, as I don't think the requirements of section 15(5) are not met because the signs are ambiguous and confusing.


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Raxy
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 20:05
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Hello - @cp8759 yes dad has the v5c and the vehicle is also registered disabled.
Il be honest with everyone I am unclear what to do? Do I not pay and wait to appeal again?
I am also unclear or failing to understand these signs just confused...
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hcandersen
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 21:14
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The default position in London is that footway parking is not allowed.


Please look at the rest of the road and the signs displayed.

The location is not an island, it sits within a dog's breakfast of signs. But there is a permissive footway parking sign further along the road if you look.
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Incandescent
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 21:20
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QUOTE (Raxy @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 20:05) *
Hello - @cp8759 yes dad has the v5c and the vehicle is also registered disabled.
Il be honest with everyone I am unclear what to do? Do I not pay and wait to appeal again?
I am also unclear or failing to understand these signs just confused...

You either appeal or pay, you can't do both. If you don't appeal it the situation will continue, so best to take them all the way, in my view, as well as the other posters here. The council have cocked up, basically.
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 21:31
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QUOTE (Raxy @ Fri, 6 Nov 2020 - 20:05) *
Hello - @cp8759 yes dad has the v5c and the vehicle is also registered disabled.
Il be honest with everyone I am unclear what to do? Do I not pay and wait to appeal again?
I am also unclear or failing to understand these signs just confused...

Write a draft representations and put it on here for us to review.


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