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PCN 33c contraventions Manor Lane Lewisham London
viola20
post Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 01:01
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I have received two PCN 33c contravention letters from lewisham council dated 29/09/2020, the contraventions occurred 05/09/2020 in Manor Lane.

Are there any grounds for appeal? Any help would be much appreciated.
The two PCN letters are attached below






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post Thu, 8 Oct 2020 - 01:01
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 09:52
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For some reason neither of the links works when I click on the images, can you try again with imgur.com please?

Also we need to see the videos, if you don't know how to upload them PM me the PCN details and I'll do it for you.


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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 11:37
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post all of the PCN there may be an issue


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viola20
post Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 17:34
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Thank you very much for your replies.
Here are the links to the two letters and the video links are posted below too. Many thanks.












https://streamable.com/yb4g60
https://streamable.com/r35ljp
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 18:39
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Two arguments that te council cannot pursue a penalty for a breach of a TMO when using a s36 traffic sign

and thre is no address foe payment on the PCN


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viola20
post Fri, 9 Oct 2020 - 19:21
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Thank you very much indeed PASTMYBEST. Would it be possible to let me know where to find the correct legislation to quote with regards to these two arguments in my draft representations? Many thanks once again.
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 15:35
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Read Adedotun Omidiora v London Borough of Harrow (219043298A, 09 November 2019) http://bit.ly/2OTma7f for the first point and regulation 4(8)(vii) here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted for the second, Mairi Brown v Glasgow City Council (GP00287-1812, 24 April 2019) http://bit.ly/2VkAKt6 is an example case that was won on this and although that was a Scottish case, the principle is the same.

Post a draft representation on here before sending it.


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viola20
post Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 17:46
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Thank you very much cp8759. I used a template from PASTMYBEST and 8080 earlier posts for my representations pdf which is attached.I'd be very grateful for any comments as I think I have to send off this evening before the 14 days expiry. Many thanks once again Attached File  PCN_REPRESENTATIONS_OCT.pdf ( 670.9K ) Number of downloads: 255
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Gerfc1
post Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 18:18
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There is nothing in the Notice where you can view the video.

This will invalid the contravention, I believe
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 18:25
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QUOTE (Gerfc1 @ Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 19:18) *
There is nothing in the Notice where you can view the video.

This will invalid the contravention, I believe


No not for these regs


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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 17:31
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viola20 these are my observations, but I have to say you've done better than 99% of OPs we get on here:

I would indent any quoted text, it makes things easier to follow (and by the time it gets to the tribunal, if we get there, there will be a lot of quoted text and we want to help the adjudicator to agree with us as much as possible).

I would quote any tribunal cases by name rather than by number, the number is mostly meaningless, or just use the full quotation as per post 7 above.

When quoting legislation, I would mimic the indentation from legislation.gov.uk as much as possible, again it just makes things easier to read.

Other than that your draft is excellent and covers all the points you need.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 17:31


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 17:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 13 Oct 2020 - 18:31) *
viola20 these are my observations, but I have to say you've done better than 99% of OPs we get on here:

I would indent any quoted text, it makes things easier to follow (and by the time it gets to the tribunal, if we get there, there will be a lot of quoted text and we want to help the adjudicator to agree with us as much as possible).

I would quote any tribunal cases by name rather than by number, the number is mostly meaningless, or just use the full quotation as per post 7 above.

When quoting legislation, I would mimic the indentation from legislation.gov.uk as much as possible, again it just makes things easier to read.

Other than that your draft is excellent and covers all the points you need.


The case number is the easiest search criteria and should always be quoted even if the full name is As CP said make it easy for an adjudicator to look up


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hillbillybrian
post Wed, 14 Oct 2020 - 15:59
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Hi viola20 & team,

I too have fallen foul with LB Lewisham's bus gate arrangements on Manor Park, nearby to your alleged Manor Lane offence, & like yourself it happened TWICE when we visited London for my son's wedding - which was fabulous!!. My son warned us that local Covid barriers had been erreccted & new bus gates that had been introduced. We found the Covid barriers OK & were constantly on the look out for 'restricted access' but just didn't see it. On reflection, the glaring-bright-numberplate-illuminating-light should have been the give-away, at least for our night time offence! The general arraignment of different types & purposes of restrictions is in general confusing.

viola20 - I like your argument, the technicalities you mention are very useful.

Like yourself, I also have visited LB Lewisham's 'Payment Site' to view the video which doesn't play. There are simply 2 images of my car & the 'video logo' which when 'clicked on' doesn't respond or have any content available.

However, to PASTMYBEST, cp8759, Gerfc1 can I raise the topic of 'signage' on approach to bus gates which seems to have changed over time with different publications show conflicting information. Traditionally, bus gates were identified with a sign showing a blue circle with the white outline of a bus in it, with a supplementary sign with the word "Only" below the blue circle sign - helpful in my opinion. Recently this has been amended as set out on Page 104 of the Government's Publishing guidelines in the link below:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

...that says:

a) The “bus only” sign to diagram 953, 953A or 953B (S3‐2‐33 to 35 respectively, see Figure 9‐22, Figure 9‐23 and Figure 9‐24) (note that these signs are no longer used with the “Only” supplementary plate).

The signage at the bus gate DOES NOT have the "Only" attached - see below:


Attached Image


However, the most recent & up to date version of the Highway Code is the 2019 Highway Code (link below) that shows the 'bus gate sign' as still having the "Only" sign attached - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs image below:


Attached Image


Which guidance should drivers observe? Is it reasonable to expect drivers to review the Government's assets.publishing.service or the most recent publication of The Highway Code?

How would this argument stand up?


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 14 Oct 2020 - 16:11
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QUOTE (hillbillybrian @ Wed, 14 Oct 2020 - 16:59) *
Hi viola20 & team,

I too have fallen foul with LB Lewisham's bus gate arrangements on Manor Park, nearby to your alleged Manor Lane offence, & like yourself it happened TWICE when we visited London for my son's wedding - which was fabulous!!. My son warned us that local Covid barriers had been erreccted & new bus gates that had been introduced. We found the Covid barriers OK & were constantly on the look out for 'restricted access' but just didn't see it. On reflection, the glaring-bright-numberplate-illuminating-light should have been the give-away, at least for our night time offence! The general arraignment of different types & purposes of restrictions is in general confusing.

viola20 - I like your argument, the technicalities you mention are very useful.

Like yourself, I also have visited LB Lewisham's 'Payment Site' to view the video which doesn't play. There are simply 2 images of my car & the 'video logo' which when 'clicked on' doesn't respond or have any content available.

However, to PASTMYBEST, cp8759, Gerfc1 can I raise the topic of 'signage' on approach to bus gates which seems to have changed over time with different publications show conflicting information. Traditionally, bus gates were identified with a sign showing a blue circle with the white outline of a bus in it, with a supplementary sign with the word "Only" below the blue circle sign - helpful in my opinion. Recently this has been amended as set out on Page 104 of the Government's Publishing guidelines in the link below:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

...that says:

a) The “bus only” sign to diagram 953, 953A or 953B (S3‐2‐33 to 35 respectively, see Figure 9‐22, Figure 9‐23 and Figure 9‐24) (note that these signs are no longer used with the “Only” supplementary plate).

The signage at the bus gate DOES NOT have the "Only" attached - see below:


Attached Image


However, the most recent & up to date version of the Highway Code is the 2019 Highway Code (link below) that shows the 'bus gate sign' as still having the "Only" sign attached - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs image below:


Attached Image


Which guidance should drivers observe? Is it reasonable to expect drivers to review the Government's assets.publishing.service or the most recent publication of The Highway Code?

How would this argument stand up?


start your own thread each if different in some way


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viola20
post Tue, 24 Nov 2020 - 00:02
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Hello, A few weeks ago I received two rejection letters from Lewisham council for the two representations I made. I need to submit my appeal to London Tribunals this week as my appeal is set for Friday 4th December. I would really appreciate some further help with the representations for the Tribunal. I'm extremely grateful for everyone's help so far. Would it be ok to use the the draft suggested by PMB to CricketLady in this thread:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=136551

I've attached the Lewisham Council rejection letters below. Thanks

CODE


CODE


CODE


CODE
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 24 Nov 2020 - 00:25
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And how are we supposed to help when we do not see the rejection of representations and then you come along and say I must submit an appeal,

Post the notice of rejection

go to the London tribunal portal register your appeal in the evidence box write full submission's to follow.

This will buy some time to help you, but remember you must post promptly


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viola20
post Tue, 24 Nov 2020 - 09:13
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Thanks PMB, I have already registered my appeal on the London tribunal and written full submissions to follow in the evidence box . I received an email to say the hearing will be on the 4th of December and need to submit any further evidence at least five days prior to the tribunal hearing. The representations I made are in a PDF earlier on in this thread. Thank you.

Here are the rejection letters






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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 24 Nov 2020 - 09:35
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Remember (early September) the restriction was all vehicles prohibited except motorbikes.

There was no bus gate TTRO until a lot later that month or in October. The Council Orders are mostly on 8080's thread and there is not one for a bus gate in early September.

It is obvious to me that the Council jumped the gun on signage and started to enforce that signage illegally.

Make sure any appeal to the Tribunal highlights this and also consider whether a costs submission should be requested. The last adjudicator fudged it so the next one needs to be "pinned".

Mick
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PassengerSeat
post Wed, 25 Nov 2020 - 12:43
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QUOTE (viola20 @ Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 17:46) *
Thank you very much cp8759. I used a template from PASTMYBEST and 8080 earlier posts for my representations pdf which is attached.I'd be very grateful for any comments as I think I have to send off this evening before the 14 days expiry. Many thanks once again Attached File  PCN_REPRESENTATIONS_OCT.pdf ( 670.9K ) Number of downloads: 255


My ticket is same as yours at excactly same location, would you mind if I borrow your appeal letter for my case? Thanks.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 25 Nov 2020 - 12:59
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Don't do that wait til Friday I will draft you an appeal

QUOTE (PassengerSeat @ Wed, 25 Nov 2020 - 12:43) *
QUOTE (viola20 @ Mon, 12 Oct 2020 - 17:46) *
Thank you very much cp8759. I used a template from PASTMYBEST and 8080 earlier posts for my representations pdf which is attached.I'd be very grateful for any comments as I think I have to send off this evening before the 14 days expiry. Many thanks once again Attached File  PCN_REPRESENTATIONS_OCT.pdf ( 670.9K ) Number of downloads: 255


My ticket is same as yours at excactly same location, would you mind if I borrow your appeal letter for my case? Thanks.


I'll cross you off my list then should I

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 24 Nov 2020 - 09:35) *
Remember (early September) the restriction was all vehicles prohibited except motorbikes.

There was no bus gate TTRO until a lot later that month or in October. The Council Orders are mostly on 8080's thread and there is not one for a bus gate in early September.

It is obvious to me that the Council jumped the gun on signage and started to enforce that signage illegally.

Make sure any appeal to the Tribunal highlights this and also consider whether a costs submission should be requested. The last adjudicator fudged it so the next one needs to be "pinned".

Mick

Viola i will draft you an appeal before Friday


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