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38JL Failing to comply with sign indicating that vehicular traffic must pass to the specified side of the sign (must pass to the left)
besh
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 18:31
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The wrong side of the road that I wanted to turn into was blocked with cones and no signs of road works or traffic diversion.

Please can someone tell if the number of days between the contravention date 10/1/18 and the date of notice 17/3/18, which is more than 65 days, invalidate the PCN or not?

I have uploaded the PCN below:








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post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 18:31
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paulajayne
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:09
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Get the video footage.

I will show that to take that right turn you had to take this action.

Though the Keep left bollard may be a sticking point.

Put video footage up on the Tube of U and link it back to this thread.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 21:33
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Is it a leased car.

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besh
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 22:13
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QUOTE (paulajayne @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 22:09) *
Get the video footage.

I will show that to take that right turn you had to take this action.

Though the Keep left bollard may be a sticking point.

Put video footage up on the Tube of U and link it back to this thread.


Hi Paulajayne

I am sorry but I am new to this. The video was provided to me via a website. It does not give me an option to download it. If I get a copy of it, then I upload it to Youtube, correct? Then how do I link it back to this thread?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 22:33) *
Is it a leased car.


Hi Stamfordman

Yes it is indeed. How did you know?!
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stamfordman
post Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 22:29
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The registered keeper is the lease company. They have given your details to the council to reissue the PCN in your name. This takes longer.

If you PM me the details I'll get video if I can.

What's the story - why did you need to drive down that side road.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 22:29
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Incandescent
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 08:08
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Looking more carefully at the photo on the PCN there is a central island that extends beyond the street where the OP turned. This is clearly there to stop people turning right into it, (Crewe station has a similar arrangement). So there is no "No Right Turn sign" as the traffic island prevents turns combined with the arrow sign.

I reckon the OP is bang-to-rights on this one; the road works are irrelevant, assuming I have assessed the photo correctly

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5289725,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 08:12
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stamfordman
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 08:21
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QUOTE (besh @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 23:13) *
I reckon the OP is bang-to-rights on this one; the road works are irrelevant, assuming I have assessed the photo correctly


Well, if you can't access the road from the other direction?

Clearly though there are other routes to that road though.
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 09:25
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 09:21) *
QUOTE (besh @ Thu, 5 Apr 2018 - 23:13) *
I reckon the OP is bang-to-rights on this one; the road works are irrelevant, assuming I have assessed the photo correctly


Well, if you can't access the road from the other direction?

Then arguably you need to seek an alternative route, the OP is going to struggle to argue with the signage. It's not just that he drove in contravention of the sign, he also effectively drove up to the junction on the wrong side of the road so he won't get much sympathy from an adjudicator.


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stamfordman
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 09:35
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 10:25) *
Then arguably you need to seek an alternative route,



That's what I said.

We need the story from the OP.
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cp8759
post Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 09:43
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 10:35) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 6 Apr 2018 - 10:25) *
Then arguably you need to seek an alternative route,



That's what I said.

We need the story from the OP.

I know I'm going to get shot down in flames for this, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I assume the OP decided not to seek an alternative route smile.gif


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besh
post Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 17:11
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If there were enough warning signs about the road work and the camera, I might have not taken that turn.

1- According to the legislations, “no penalty charge notice may be served
under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date
on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.”
There are about 65 days between the date of contravention and the date of notice, even if the car was a leased car, still it is not an exception.

2- The description in the PCN of when the Charge Certificate may be served in not in line with legislations:
Charge certificates
5(1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served.

3- According to the secretary of state, when using a CCTV, it should be well publicized. There are no warning signs for the use of CCTV for that spot. Also, is there formal authorisation for the use of the camera to enforce moving traffic contraventions?

4- I have emailed the council asking for the CCTV footage and the evidence for authorisation of the use of the camera. Somehow they took this as my formal representation. Now I am unable to submit my representation from their website, saying “a representation has previously been made for this case”

Please your feedback is appreciated.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 20:48
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First paragraph is only an extract from the legislation. If you study it carefully, you'll see that they indeed have 28 days from contravention to serve the PCN, but this applies to the first PCN to the hire company. They then appeal it on the basis of being a hire company, and give your name and address. When the council cancel the first PCN, which can be several weeks after contravention date, they then have another 28 days to issue one to you.

You'll also get nowhere on lack of camera signs. CCTV enforcement is now so well established that adjudicators will not consider this as a valid appeal because it is only a recommendation, not law.

There is nothing to prevent you submitting an appeal using other means, and point out, when you get to adjudication, that the council website barred your appeal.
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besh
post Sun, 15 Apr 2018 - 00:38
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 21:48) *
First paragraph is only an extract from the legislation. If you study it carefully, you'll see that they indeed have 28 days from contravention to serve the PCN, but this applies to the first PCN to the hire company. They then appeal it on the basis of being a hire company, and give your name and address. When the council cancel the first PCN, which can be several weeks after contravention date, they then have another 28 days to issue one to you.


Thank you for feedback. What if the Hire Company did not take long to appeal the ticket? Also how long is a period that would be regarded as unacceptable or too long, from the date of the contravention to serving the second PCN to the actual driver? This is because I received another PCN today for exactly the same incident. However the were 80 days between the date of the contravention and date of Notice. This again brings me to point about the CCTV warning signs. Had there been such warnings I would have been more careful, and that should be the objective of using such cameras. According to the traffic management act:

8.79 The primary objective of any camera enforcement system is to ensure the safe and efficient operation of the road network by deterring motorists from breaking road traffic restrictions and detecting those that do. To do this, the system needs to be well publicised and indicated with lawful traffic signs.

Also, what do think of my second point concerning the description of the Charge Certificate?
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besh
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 21:21
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Guys any help is appreciated.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 21:59
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Appeals have been won on PCN content errors, like the 28 days to issue a CC is not correct. However no other points are valid, the CCTV signs are just recommendations and motorists have to assume cameras are everywhere in London. You should not need a camera sign before you drive in a lawful manner, and a London Tribunals adjudicator will not give it any weight.

I suspect if you take it to London Tribunals you'll lose, but others may disagree. However make sure when you submit your appeal you claim it is out-of-time despite what we have told you, as they could have been tardy in issuing the PCN to you after the hire company appealed it.

You'd better post-up this 2nd PCN because certainly that looks unlawful. Maybe it's your car taken from another camera, these things do occur. Only other thing that comes to mind is the PCN you already posted is the one sent to the hire company and they've passed it onto you, and you've now received the real one. If so that does look way out of time.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 22:04
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 22:04
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QUOTE (besh @ Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 22:21) *
Guys any help is appreciated.



edit


This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 22:05


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besh
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 19:25
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Hi

I received a Charge Certificate from the council. However, I did not receive their Notice of Rejection to my representation before hand. What should I do? Your advice is very much appreciated.



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Incandescent
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 19:49
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You now have to wait for the Order for Recovery. This will include the forms to make a Statutory Declaration to TEC. Your grounds for making this will be "I did not receive the Notice of Rejection of Representations". Once this is accepted you can either appeal to the adjudicators or pay-up.
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besh
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 21:25
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Incandescent,

Much obliged!

Issuing the CC in this way, doesn't it render the PCN invalid? Cause that means they can issue the CC anytime they feel like it, and I thought there is a strict time frame the council should adhere to, namely NtO, challenge, representation, NoR, Appeal, and lastly CC.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 21:43
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QUOTE (besh @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 22:25) *
Issuing the CC in this way, doesn't it render the PCN invalid? Cause that means they can issue the CC anytime they feel like it, and I thought there is a strict time frame the council should adhere to, namely NtO, challenge, representation, NoR, Appeal, and lastly CC.


Council will probably say they sent the rejection. We see a lot of 'lost in post' letters especially notice of rejections. As long as you can make a legal witness statement you didn't get it that's fine.
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