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Speeding ticket/fine from France 10 months later
xerxestheconfuse...
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:01
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We went to France last year in early September, and yesterday morning I received a letter from France dated 17/06/2019.
One letter is headed Ministere Publique with an address in Rennes Brittany - we didn't go anywhere near Brittany. It seems to indicate that I have to pay Euros 375 with a reduction to Euros 300 if I pay within 30 days. On this letter there is also a time, date and place - Vauclerc - which would indicate that I was there, because it includes my reg number and car make.

The next letter is a - Formulaire de Reclamation
Finally a letter telling me where to pay the money to.


I have no idea what to do, because I was very careful in France last year, and if I was speeding then everyone else around me was as well.

I have read some of the other posts on here, and none of the correspondence is in English and I was driving my own, UK registered vehicle at the time.
This seems an awful lot to pay for a speeding fine - my first ever in France in 21 years of driving there.


Any advice on what to do next would be welcomed.
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cp8759
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 10:34
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:07) *
The Lord Chancellor's Department is the nominated authority but would outstanding penalties be sent directly to his department for processing or to an official body set up for such matters?

If you have a look at rule 30.10 and the accompanying notes here https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...015-part-30.pdf it seems pretty clear. I very much doubt David Gauke MP personally deals with such matters, but there will undoubtedly be someone who's tasked with dealing with this on his behalf.

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:07) *
On the other hand, if a penalty is not being returned to the country claiming it then why start a claim? It would seem it's not in the interests of either country to pursue these penalties.

Well, you know, something to do with the interest of justice and the punishment of offenders maybe?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:12
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 17:01) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:41) *
"There was the opportunity to challenge the penalty in writing when the first notice was issued which would have required a deposit of the €45 penalty amount with the challenge. As you have not paid or challenged you are liable for the 'amende forfaitaire majorée' (the maximum penalty} which, presumably, is what you now have."

I don't think you understand, this is all I have. A bunch of papers in French, with no precise details of the speed I was doing, or the location of the speed camera. The fact that 10 months after my holiday, the French are chasing me for 375 Euros or 300 Euros if I pay within 30 days, has really hacked me off.
If they had fined me 45 Euros I would have paid it without hesitation.
Anyway the letter has been sent and I have asked them to reply in English and supply me with more details.


It was an explanation what would have happened if you had received the original penalty notice. As you haven't posted any documents it's guesswork as to what you have received.

However, as it seems to be an "Amende Forfaitaire Majorée" halfway down on the left hand side it will state

exces de vitesse (amount over the limit)

vitesse max authorisée (posted speed limit)

date and time

type of camera

location of the offence

vehicle registration

which should enable you to know where and when it occurred.

If you have written to Rennes you will have to await their reply. It will be interesting to know how they handle someone that didn't receive the original penalty notice and compare it to the UK process.

Eventually, as it was your car you may have to pay up or ignore. As things stand, there is virtually no chance of it being pursued in the UK as, whilst it seems there is mutual recognition of penalties within EU the UK hasn't nominated an official body to handle such claims.



Thanks for that, this is very similar, but doesn't give the speed limit of the road and it doesn't give my speed, it simply says - Exces de vitesse >= 20 ET <30 KM/H. It dosn't give the type of camera or a precise location, simply Vauclerc (which would have been on my route) and the time of the offence plus the reg number and make of my car.
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baroudeur
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:01
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:12) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 17:01) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:41) *
"There was the opportunity to challenge the penalty in writing when the first notice was issued which would have required a deposit of the €45 penalty amount with the challenge. As you have not paid or challenged you are liable for the 'amende forfaitaire majorée' (the maximum penalty} which, presumably, is what you now have."

I don't think you understand, this is all I have. A bunch of papers in French, with no precise details of the speed I was doing, or the location of the speed camera. The fact that 10 months after my holiday, the French are chasing me for 375 Euros or 300 Euros if I pay within 30 days, has really hacked me off.
If they had fined me 45 Euros I would have paid it without hesitation.
Anyway the letter has been sent and I have asked them to reply in English and supply me with more details.


It was an explanation what would have happened if you had received the original penalty notice. As you haven't posted any documents it's guesswork as to what you have received.

However, as it seems to be an "Amende Forfaitaire Majorée" halfway down on the left hand side it will state

exces de vitesse (amount over the limit)

vitesse max authorisée (posted speed limit)





date and time

type of camera

location of the offence

vehicle registration

which should enable you to know where and when it occurred.

If you have written to Rennes you will have to await their reply. It will be interesting to know how they handle someone that didn't receive the original penalty notice and compare it to the UK process.

Eventually, as it was your car you may have to pay up or ignore. As things stand, there is virtually no chance of it being pursued in the UK as, whilst it seems there is mutual recognition of penalties within EU the UK hasn't nominated an official body to handle such claims.



Thanks for that, this is very similar, but doesn't give the speed limit of the road and it doesn't give my speed, it simply says - Exces de vitesse >= 20 ET <30 KM/H. It dosn't give the type of camera or a precise location, simply Vauclerc (which would have been on my route) and the time of the offence plus the reg number and make of my car.



This one then N4 Vauclerc speed camera
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The Rookie
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:27
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The key issue I see here, is that regardless of the legal niceties if you get stopped by 'les gendarmes' in France its going to cause a whole heap of pain, languages of notices etc. will all be irrelevant.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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xerxestheconfuse...
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:44
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:01) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:12) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 17:01) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:41) *
"There was the opportunity to challenge the penalty in writing when the first notice was issued which would have required a deposit of the €45 penalty amount with the challenge. As you have not paid or challenged you are liable for the 'amende forfaitaire majorée' (the maximum penalty} which, presumably, is what you now have."

I don't think you understand, this is all I have. A bunch of papers in French, with no precise details of the speed I was doing, or the location of the speed camera. The fact that 10 months after my holiday, the French are chasing me for 375 Euros or 300 Euros if I pay within 30 days, has really hacked me off.
If they had fined me 45 Euros I would have paid it without hesitation.
Anyway the letter has been sent and I have asked them to reply in English and supply me with more details.


It was an explanation what would have happened if you had received the original penalty notice. As you haven't posted any documents it's guesswork as to what you have received.

However, as it seems to be an "Amende Forfaitaire Majorée" halfway down on the left hand side it will state

exces de vitesse (amount over the limit)

vitesse max authorisée (posted speed limit)





date and time

type of camera

location of the offence

vehicle registration

which should enable you to know where and when it occurred.

If you have written to Rennes you will have to await their reply. It will be interesting to know how they handle someone that didn't receive the original penalty notice and compare it to the UK process.

Eventually, as it was your car you may have to pay up or ignore. As things stand, there is virtually no chance of it being pursued in the UK as, whilst it seems there is mutual recognition of penalties within EU the UK hasn't nominated an official body to handle such claims.



Thanks for that, this is very similar, but doesn't give the speed limit of the road and it doesn't give my speed, it simply says - Exces de vitesse >= 20 ET <30 KM/H. It dosn't give the type of camera or a precise location, simply Vauclerc (which would have been on my route) and the time of the offence plus the reg number and make of my car.



This one then N4 Vauclerc speed camera


Wow, if that is the camera, then 93 people per day were getting flashed by it in 2017 - 34,121. That is unreal, there is definitely something not right about it. There is another speed camera which I would have passed a little earlier on the same stretch of road with a 110 KM/H limit - Thieblemont Faremont.

https://www.radars-auto.com/maps/index2.php?id_radar=1602
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The Rookie
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 14:14
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Given the traffic flow likely on that road, 93 a day is a very small percentage, not at all unreal I’d suggest.

Some of our camera locations in the UK, care catching people at rates much higher than 1/minute.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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andy_foster
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 20:22
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:07) *
On the other hand, if a penalty is not being returned to the country claiming it then why start a claim? It would seem it's not in the interests of either country to pursue these penalties.


Pour encourager les autres


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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baroudeur
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 10:36
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:44) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:01) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:12) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 17:01) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:41) *
"There was the opportunity to challenge the penalty in writing when the first notice was issued which would have required a deposit of the €45 penalty amount with the challenge. As you have not paid or challenged you are liable for the 'amende forfaitaire majorée' (the maximum penalty} which, presumably, is what you now have."

I don't think you understand, this is all I have. A bunch of papers in French, with no precise details of the speed I was doing, or the location of the speed camera. The fact that 10 months after my holiday, the French are chasing me for 375 Euros or 300 Euros if I pay within 30 days, has really hacked me off.
If they had fined me 45 Euros I would have paid it without hesitation.
Anyway the letter has been sent and I have asked them to reply in English and supply me with more details.


It was an explanation what would have happened if you had received the original penalty notice. As you haven't posted any documents it's guesswork as to what you have received.

However, as it seems to be an "Amende Forfaitaire Majorée" halfway down on the left hand side it will state

exces de vitesse (amount over the limit)

vitesse max authorisée (posted speed limit)





date and time

type of camera

location of the offence

vehicle registration

which should enable you to know where and when it occurred.

If you have written to Rennes you will have to await their reply. It will be interesting to know how they handle someone that didn't receive the original penalty notice and compare it to the UK process.

Eventually, as it was your car you may have to pay up or ignore. As things stand, there is virtually no chance of it being pursued in the UK as, whilst it seems there is mutual recognition of penalties within EU the UK hasn't nominated an official body to handle such claims.



Thanks for that, this is very similar, but doesn't give the speed limit of the road and it doesn't give my speed, it simply says - Exces de vitesse >= 20 ET <30 KM/H. It dosn't give the type of camera or a precise location, simply Vauclerc (which would have been on my route) and the time of the offence plus the reg number and make of my car.



This one then N4 Vauclerc speed camera


Wow, if that is the camera, then 93 people per day were getting flashed by it in 2017 - 34,121. That is unreal, there is definitely something not right about it. There is another speed camera which I would have passed a little earlier on the same stretch of road with a 110 KM/H limit - Thieblemont Faremont.

https://www.radars-auto.com/maps/index2.php?id_radar=1602


You gave the location on the document as Vauclerc and that is the only camera in Vauclerc - the French are very parochial!

Yes, the figures will be accurate.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:34) *
Well, you know, something to do with the interest of justice and the punishment of offenders maybe?



I agree 100% wink.gif
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baroudeur
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 10:53
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:27) *
The key issue I see here, is that regardless of the legal niceties if you get stopped by 'les gendarmes' in France its going to cause a whole heap of pain, languages of notices etc. will all be irrelevant.



That's the theory, but how would it work?

Assuming that it's true that the French do operate a ghost licence arrangement do they put the details of outstanding penalties on an ANPR database to which the police and gendarmerie have instant access? Alternatively, random vehicle checks are common in France but without access to a database of outstanding penalties nothing would be revealed.

The French have a huge problem with foreign motorists who visit and traverse the country and exceed the speed limits. They do have reciprocal penalty collecting arrangements with Luxembourg and Switzerland but - it seems - not with the UK.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 14:28
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I see no reason why they couldn’t/wouldn’t have a database of vehicle reg numbers having unpaid penalties against them, see them again and stop them.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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baroudeur
post Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 15:51
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 15:28) *
I see no reason why they couldn’t/wouldn’t have a database of vehicle reg numbers having unpaid penalties against them, see them again and stop them.


It was a rhetorical question.

There must be many thousands of foreign drivers that have outstanding motoring penalties in France but not one report of a UK car being stopped for that reason.

Nonetheless, paying €45 may give peace of mind and absolution to those who travel French roads regularly.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 13:37
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I have had confirmation from Royal Mail tracker that my letter was delivered to Rennes yesterday, so I will await their next move.
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baroudeur
post Thu, 25 Jul 2019 - 13:16
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 14:37) *
I have had confirmation from Royal Mail tracker that my letter was delivered to Rennes yesterday, so I will await their next move.



Did you claim that you had not received the original penalty notice? Any reason why you wouldn't have received it? The V5 address must be correct as Rennes have sent you the latest documents.

If they accept your claim they may well re-issue the original penalty notice for either a discounted Amende Minoré at €90 or the standard penalty, Amende Majorée at €135.

Keep us up to date as this is an interesting case of dealing with the French system.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 13:35
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 25 Jul 2019 - 14:16) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 14:37) *
I have had confirmation from Royal Mail tracker that my letter was delivered to Rennes yesterday, so I will await their next move.



Did you claim that you had not received the original penalty notice? Any reason why you wouldn't have received it? The V5 address must be correct as Rennes have sent you the latest documents.

If they accept your claim they may well re-issue the original penalty notice for either a discounted Amende Minoré at €90 or the standard penalty, Amende Majorée at €135.

Keep us up to date as this is an interesting case of dealing with the French system.


Our post has been a mit hit and miss over the past year, with different posties and mail going to the wrong address. If I had received a fine for E90 I woulod have paid it immediately.
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ConfusedDaze
post Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 22:05
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baroudeur; what do you mean when you say a ghost record?

Do they have a ghost license system in France, I wasn't aware they did that for foreign drivers?


--------------------


Thanks
CD
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baroudeur
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 09:50
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QUOTE (ConfusedDaze @ Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 23:05) *
baroudeur; what do you mean when you say a ghost record?

Do they have a ghost license system in France, I wasn't aware they did that for foreign drivers?


A ghost record (permis à points virtuel) is set up for foreign offenders. This will include points so totting 12 points could lead to the licence being suspended in France
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:31
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The saga continues and is even more confusing. I supplied my full address with postcode in my letter, and I tracked ity to make sure they had received it.
Today I have received another two part letter, one of which is in English and says,

Regarding the letter you sent me, I inform you that it has been rejected due to non-compliance with at least one of the mandatory rules prescribed by Articles 529-10 and 530 of the Code of Civil Procedure.

Please see the reasons for rejection below:
Civil status (name-surname) incomplete:
Incomplete designation: Community not filled in:
Incomplete ddesignation: Postcode not filled in:
Incomplete designation: Streetname and additional address not filled in:

You have the option to repeat your requestby completing the appeal form on the official site www.antai.fr, in the "how do I appeal?" section.


So I am now confused and a little alarmed, because the French part two as far as I can see, is basically a demand for the 375 Euros, and they have failed to give me the exact speed I was doing at the time.
I am going to attempt to appeal, so I will let you know how I get on.
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 12:36
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:31) *
[b]Regarding the letter you sent me, I inform you that it has been rejected due to non-compliance with at least one of the mandatory rules prescribed by Articles 529-10 and 530 of the Code of Civil Procedure.

This is not in any way constructive, but personally I'd write back telling them in no unclear terms where they can put their Code of Civil Procedure.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:27
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:36) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:31) *
[b]Regarding the letter you sent me, I inform you that it has been rejected due to non-compliance with at least one of the mandatory rules prescribed by Articles 529-10 and 530 of the Code of Civil Procedure.

This is not in any way constructive, but personally I'd write back telling them in no unclear terms where they can put their Code of Civil Procedure.



I just find it beyond bizarre, because every one of those so called rejection points were clearly present in my letter to them. I cannot find anything to support a speeding fine of 375 Euros. The only thing I know, is that I was doing between 20 and 30 KPh over the speed limit. I do know that the previous speed camera on that road, which I would have passed a few kilometres previously was 110 and the one on the same stretch of road which flashed me was 70.
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Charlie1010
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:36
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I drive in France a lot.
https://www.francepointspermis.fr/blog/perm...-les-etrangers/

‘A ghost record (permis à points virtuel) is set up for foreign offenders. This will include points so totting 12 points could lead to the licence being suspended in France’
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