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driving without due care and attention
scribz
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 10:16
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Hi this is my first my post as i am new to this forum.

First of all i would like to apologise if this topic has already been covered, i tried to search but could not find anything that fully relates to my situation.

I have had a court summons and am being charged with;

'drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road / in a public place without due care attention'

In the full offence wording they have stated that i was driving without due care and attention, in that witnesses saw and heard me, described as at 'speed' two other cars involved were written off, injuries were sustained by these driver and the pedestrian.

My argument is that i was not speeding, the car i was driving was a VW Golf R32 and the engine/exhaust which when people hear automatically think im driving fast.

I was on the main road, which i believe is my right way, third party pulled out from a give way and obstructed my route.

Police were called to the scene and straight away members of the public got involved (some of these people were not there at the time but decided to join in) and all started saying to the police i was speeding.

The police then originally cautioned me for dangerous driving, but the letter in the post now suggests it is for driving without due care and attention,

My question first of all is:

[b]1. i was not speeding so how can they prove i was or how do i prove i wasn't?

2. surely its my right of way since im on the main road so if anyone is getting into trouble for driving without due care and attention it should be the third party that pulled out from the give way?

[/b]


3. i have no legal representation, i will be representing myself so if anyone can shed some light on how i would address this in the correct manner in court.



Your responses would very much be appreciated.

Thank you



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post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 10:16
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The Rookie
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:06
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Speeding isn’t really the point, what you are charg d with is driving without due care and attention and to be found guilty the PDriver life would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your driving standard fell below that for a careful and competatnt driver.

Speed (over or under the limit, but if inappropriate) could be a contributing factor or on its own enough for the charge to be proven. (Assuming the excess speed can be proven beyond reasonable doubt)

Perhaps you can describe the incident in more detail?

I know what you mean about an R32 exhaust note, it’s not what most expect from a Golf and it’s possible they make 2+2=5 from what they hear.


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666
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:52
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QUOTE (scribz @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
I was on the main road, which i believe is my right way, third party pulled out from a give way and obstructed my route.


"The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others."

So you did NOT have "right of way" (there is no such thing). The other driver should certainly have given way., but ... did you take any action to avoid the collision, or to reduce its impact?

Although below the limit, your speed may have been excessive in the circumstances.


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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:59
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It would be helpful to have a Google Street view link.

So much depends on circumstance. As Simon said the prosecution only need to prove your driving fell below the standard of a careful and competent driver. It's not a very high bar

If it was in an urban area and you managed to write off two cars then that may be a strong reason to take it to court because it would imply a degree of bad luck if speed or inattentiveness weren't factors.

You need to try and focus on the careful/competent aspect here. It is pretty widely accepted that lay people are not great at estimating speeds. The CPS will happily let you focus on speed which, although not immaterial, is not a make or break aspect of their case. The collision itself, and whether it was avoidable with better anticipation, is the key thing here.


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Jlc
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 12:06
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QUOTE (scribz @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
...so if anyone is getting into trouble for driving without due care and attention it should be the third party that pulled out from the give way?

It's possible the other driver is facing charges too, but this doesn't provide you any defence. (Both drivers could have fell below the standard of a safe and competent driver)

QUOTE (scribz @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
i have no legal representation, i will be representing myself so if anyone can shed some light on how i would address this in the correct manner in court.

Have you entered a plea yet?

Did the matter go straight to court?


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scribz
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 13:10
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 12:59) *
It would be helpful to have a Google Street view link.

So much depends on circumstance. As Simon said the prosecution only need to prove your driving fell below the standard of a careful and competent driver. It's not a very high bar

If it was in an urban area and you managed to write off two cars then that may be a strong reason to take it to court because it would imply a degree of bad luck if speed or inattentiveness weren't factors.

You need to try and focus on the careful/competent aspect here. It is pretty widely accepted that lay people are not great at estimating speeds. The CPS will happily let you focus on speed which, although not immaterial, is not a make or break aspect of their case. The collision itself, and whether it was avoidable with better anticipation, is the key thing here.



Thank you for your reply, this is the link;

https://goo.gl/maps/ix5xXdD9ZR32

I was travelling down towards booth lane south, the third party was was on debdale road travelling straight into thirlmere avenue. As i collided into the the third party we both then collided onto another car that was waiting on the give way on thirlmere avenue.

The mini pulled out infront of me so it was too late for me to break so my reaction was that i tried to avoid the accident by moving more to my left hoping third party will see me and brake in time. The report from the third parties black box states crash point approx speed was 17mph, is that a lot considering you'd have to be at a stop at a give way if there were cars on the road?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 13:06) *
QUOTE (scribz @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
...so if anyone is getting into trouble for driving without due care and attention it should be the third party that pulled out from the give way?

It's possible the other driver is facing charges too, but this doesn't provide you any defence. (Both drivers could have fell below the standard of a safe and competent driver)

QUOTE (scribz @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
i have no legal representation, i will be representing myself so if anyone can shed some light on how i would address this in the correct manner in court.

Have you entered a plea yet?

Did the matter go straight to court?



Yes, i pleaded not guilty as i believe i done everything i could do to avoid the accident, during these times you only have a split second to make a decision.

After i was cautioned on the scene, i received a plea letter, once i pleaded the next letter was a court date

QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 12:52) *
QUOTE (scribz @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 11:16) *
I was on the main road, which i believe is my right way, third party pulled out from a give way and obstructed my route.


"The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others."

So you did NOT have "right of way" (there is no such thing). The other driver should certainly have given way., but ... did you take any action to avoid the collision, or to reduce its impact?

Although below the limit, your speed may have been excessive in the circumstances.



Thank you i was not aware of that.

I had very little control to completely avoid the collision as i was not expecting third party to pull out. When i noticed that third party pulled out it was too late to brake i would have still collided, so i moved more to the left hoping that third party will see me and then brake. The report from the third parties black box states crash point approx speed was 17mph, is that a lot considering you'd have to be at a stop at a give way if there were cars on the road? What points can i say in my defence?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 12:06) *
Speeding isn’t really the point, what you are charg d with is driving without due care and attention and to be found guilty the PDriver life would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your driving standard fell below that for a careful and competatnt driver.

Speed (over or under the limit, but if inappropriate) could be a contributing factor or on its own enough for the charge to be proven. (Assuming the excess speed can be proven beyond reasonable doubt)

Perhaps you can describe the incident in more detail?

I know what you mean about an R32 exhaust note, it’s not what most expect from a Golf and it’s possible they make 2+2=5 from what they hear.


Hi yes certainly, ive attached a link to help understand the situation better.

I was travelling on the headlands towards booth lane south, as i was driving down, the third party pulled out from debdale road and was travelling across towards thirlmere avenue.

I had very little control to completely avoid the collision as i was not expecting third party to pull out. When i noticed that third party pulled out it was too late to brake i would have still collided, so i moved more to the left hoping that third party will see me and then brake. The report from the third parties black box states crash point approx speed was 17mph, is that a lot considering you'd have to be at a stop at a give way if there were cars on the road? What points can i say in my defence?

I just think this is unfair, before the police even took my version of events they cautioned me because so many people started gathering around seeing the car then saying 'defo speeding' and 'boy racer' most of the people didnt see anything at all i believe this then influence the police to make the decision. The R32 is definitely more sound then power especially with an aftermarket exhaust



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southpaw82
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 14:36
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And what do the witness statements say?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 15:12
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You don’t have to stop at a give way, you have to stop at a STOP.

it’s no time to brake, your car did break!

Your split second to make a decision is irrelevant and meaningless, you aren’t being prosecuted for what happened after they started to pull out in front of you but for your driving before that point, unless there was something abnormal that day 30mph looks like a perfectly reasonable speed to be travelling and even 35-40 wouldn’t to my mind constitute without due car and attention merely the technical offence of excess speed.

What do the police’s documents actually suggest you were doing wrong?


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scribz
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 22:24
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 15:36) *
And what do the witness statements say?


Altogether there are 6 witness statements, 2 of the witness statements are the third party vehicles involved, the other 3 said they only heard and did not see. The last person said they saw my car 'bouncing and skidded towards the junctions and that i had lost control' baring in mind this car is 4 wheel drive and there were no skid marks whatsoever and the road condition was dry and nobody else's witness statement matches this persons version of events. A picture was also included taken by this person stating that the people in the picture were the occupants of the vehicle which they was not.
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scribz
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 22:37
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 16:12) *
You don’t have to stop at a give way, you have to stop at a STOP.

it’s no time to brake, your car did break!

Your split second to make a decision is irrelevant and meaningless, you aren’t being prosecuted for what happened after they started to pull out in front of you but for your driving before that point, unless there was something abnormal that day 30mph looks like a perfectly reasonable speed to be travelling and even 35-40 wouldn’t to my mind constitute without due car and attention merely the technical offence of excess speed.

What do the police’s documents actually suggest you were doing wrong?


sorry my mistake, i was referring to the highway code rule 172. 'The approach to a junction may have a 'Give Way' sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.'

The weather condition was normal and dry that day, the documents i have received including from CPS is for 'drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road / in a public place without due care attention' and in the witness statement they attached 6 statements from witnesses.

They tried to charge me for no insurance as well, but on my not guilty plea i gave my policy number and said that i had already given my details to the police at the scene otherwise i wouldve got in more trouble there and then and i even gave my claim reference number from my insurance thats when they dropped that and gave my court date for just 'drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road / in a public place without due care attention'
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Logician
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 22:40
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And what did the third party witness statements say?


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scribz
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 22:54
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 23:40) *
And what did the third party witness statements say?


Altogether there are 6 witness statements

2 of the witness statements are the third party vehicles involved.

one of them said i fled the scene? police were on the scene so i have evidence of my NIP with the time stamp, plus my car was the last car to get towed away. this person also said they seen me and felt i was far away enough for them to drive across safely. Surely if i was 'speeding' the driver would have noticed and not gone across the junction?

the other car that was involved just wrote 'witnesses told the police the driver was speeding'

the other 3 said they only heard and did not see.

The last person said they saw my car 'bouncing and skidded towards the junctions and that i had lost control' baring in mind this car is 4 wheel drive and there were no skid marks whatsoever and the road condition was dry and nobody else's witness statement matches this persons version of events. A picture was also included taken by this person stating that the people in the picture were the occupants of the vehicle which they was not.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 05:52
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There will be two factors here
1/ will they be willing to turn up in court and relay their version of events
2/ how can you rebut them

For example, that looks a pretty straight road, so how could you car have been bouncing, and for the one who claims you left the scene, well once you show one part of their statement is completely untrue then the rest becomes somewhat suspect.

It’s hard to see how someone giving way could have been doing 17 mph at the point of the accident.

I’d get on social med-ja and see if you can find any links between the witnesses and the other driver.......


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Jlc
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 06:41
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IMHO I think some professional help is required if pleading not guilty. It may be a costly experience without it.


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PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
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Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 07:02
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 07:41) *
IMHO I think some professional help is required if pleading not guilty. It may be a costly experience without it.

Exactly. Cross examination isn’t for amateurs.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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scribz
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 08:55
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 06:52) *
There will be two factors here
1/ will they be willing to turn up in court and relay their version of events
2/ how can you rebut them

For example, that looks a pretty straight road, so how could you car have been bouncing, and for the one who claims you left the scene, well once you show one part of their statement is completely untrue then the rest becomes somewhat suspect.

It’s hard to see how someone giving way could have been doing 17 mph at the point of the accident.

I’d get on social med-ja and see if you can find any links between the witnesses and the other driver.......


If they dont turn up to court, does this work in my favour?

Exactly, and the fact that he took a picture of the wrong occupants makes me wonder was he there from the beginning or did he arrive later after being called/was passing by at the time.

Sounds like a good idea i will be looking through the net and see what i can find. Thanks

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 07:41) *
IMHO I think some professional help is required if pleading not guilty. It may be a costly experience without it.



If i was to be found not guilty will i be reimbursed for the professional help i obtain? Also any further tips you can advise which may be helpful if i was to represent myself?

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 08:02) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 07:41) *
IMHO I think some professional help is required if pleading not guilty. It may be a costly experience without it.

Exactly. Cross examination isn’t for amateurs.



If i was to represent myself, any tips/ideas i could use to help present my case?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 11:23
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QUOTE (scribz @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 09:55) *
If they dont turn up to court, does this work in my favour?

You will have challenged their statement (if you don't you are accepting it in its entirety), that requires them to turn up, if they don't their statement becomes a nullity (under most situations, its unlikely an exception will apply).

It would help to know EXACTLY where yo are at in the process, it sounds like you have summons and witness statements, have you entered a plea? had a case management hearing?


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scribz
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 11:31
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (scribz @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 09:55) *
If they dont turn up to court, does this work in my favour?

You will have challenged their statement (if you don't you are accepting it in its entirety), that requires them to turn up, if they don't their statement becomes a nullity (under most situations, its unlikely an exception will apply).

It would help to know EXACTLY where yo are at in the process, it sounds like you have summons and witness statements, have you entered a plea? had a case management hearing?


Yes i will definately be challenging all statements, as a lot of the witness statements contradict each other.

At the moment, i have pleaded not guilty and have been given my court summons and my court date is magistrates court at the end of June.

Sorry for the ignorance but can you have a case management hearing if you are representing yourself?
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NewJudge
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:41
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QUOTE (scribz @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:31) *
Sorry for the ignorance but can you have a case management hearing if you are representing yourself?


Yes. In most areas the Case Management hearing would be held immediately you enter your Not Guilty plea. You will be asked the basis of your Not Guilty plea. Since the allegation is Careless Driving you should explain that you believe your driving did not fall below the standard expected of a careful and competent driver and that you dispute much of the evidence provided by the witnesses. The hearing will need to establish which witnesses are to attend and you should ask for any of those whose evidence you dispute. The hearing will estimate the amount of court time needed for your trial and set a date.

You do not really need representation at the CM hearing. The court's Legal Advisor has a duty to assist unrepresented defendants with the court process (though, despite the title, he or she cannot provide you with legal advice). As mentioned above, however, cross examining witnesses is not straightforward so you may need to consider representation at the trial.

As far as the witnesses go, if they do not attend the trial their evidence cannot be admitted. (There are a few exceptions to that but they are unlikely to be applicable in your case).
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:27
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QUOTE (scribz @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:31) *
Yes i will definately be challenging all statements, as a lot of the witness statements contradict each other.

At the moment, i have pleaded not guilty and have been given my court summons and my court date is magistrates court at the end of June.

Sorry for the ignorance but can you have a case management hearing if you are representing yourself?

You should probably have challenged the witness statements already otherwise how would they know they had to get them to attend? You may already be too late.

the case management hearing is so both sides can summarise their case and the court can allocate the right amount of time.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:27


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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