Bus Stop PCN May 2010 Options

[dazza.mk]

Apologies for the slightly vague information, but my wife has only called me regarding the details:

In May 2010 we had a hire car whilst my wife's car was repaired following an accident, all closed off (or so we thought)

Several weeks ago my wife received a 'Final Notice' from a debt collector for circa £64 , we sent them a Nationaldebtline template to prove the debt and received a response today. It referred to a charge from Bournemouth council for stopping in a bus stop. We were in Bournemouth at the time, however cannot recollect the details, the one thing we do know (after my wife checked with the council) is that the charge has been settled by the hire company, I just wondered what was the appropriate legal position in relation to our debt via the hire company (given that we are not aware one way or other of the actual offence 18 moonths later).

I've seen details re: legal requirements of hiring agreement in order for it to be valid under the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (which I'll check tonight)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made

But I'm assuming that there are also timelines by which we should have received notification of the charge rather than via a letter from a debt collector 18 months later (as we still live at the hiring address).

Thanks in advance.

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[Gan]

Very surprised that you learnt about this way and that it's only £64
Most hire companies will take it off your credit card along with a hefty "administration charge"

I'd be amazed if your contract with them didn't make you responsible so I'd be inclined to pay it "in full and final settlement" and "without admission of liability". At least you've confirmed it as genuine.

Can't be much of a debt collector who only wants £4 for a £60 debt. Sounds like the hire company would have used an online system that just sends out a template letter.

[Neil B]

Very surprised that you learnt about this way and that it's only £64
Most hire companies will take it off your credit card along with a hefty "administration charge"

I'd be amazed if your contract with them didn't make you responsible so I'd be inclined to pay it "in full and final settlement" and "without admission of liability". At least you've confirmed it as genuine.

Can't be much of a debt collector who only wants £4 for a £60 debt. Sounds like the hire company would have used an online system that just sends out a template letter.

Gan he said he 'knew' the PCN was paid by hire co. So why would he pay anything now?

We need to see all paperwork to establish what this actually is.

[Gan]

I was assuming that it's the hire company claiming it back from him according to their T&C.

Worth checking with the insurance company that they haven't padded their bill with it ?

[Neil B]

I just can't decide it is anything for definite - without the comms docs.

[Gan]

You're probably wise.

OP is sketchy on the basic details at the moment

[dazza.mk]

Many Thanks to initial posters for their responses.

Still sketchy on the details due to the 'sketchy' information received from the debt collector. The 'proof' that they have sent is a 'Pre Debt Registration Notice' sent by Bournemouth Borough Council to the hire company for failure to respond to the Penalty Charge Notice and Notice to Owner threatening to register the debt against the Hire Company at the County Court.

My wife has actually done the digging whilst I was out and confirmed that the PCN related to stopping in a Bus Stop Clearance Zone, but obviously I don't have any visibility of this.

What I do have is the "Delivery Acceptance Advice" in Relation to the Hire Car - (As it was an insurance hire there was no specific car hire contract) that specifies:

"1 The Hirer agrees:
a) whilst the Hirer is responsible for the vehicle, it is the Hirer's responsibility to pay all road tolls, penalties or charges imposed by statute or otherwise relating to the way in which the vehicle is used, driven or parked; and

b) the Hirer will pay the Lessor an administration charge of £50 plus VAT on each occasion it receives a charge and/or penalty or notification of either of them."

So according to their T&C's we would be liable for the PCN & £50 + VAT yet they are chasing us for £64.38?


This is actually the alleged offence location, the streetview isn't good enough to see all road markings, and of course I've no way of showing what markings existed 18 months ago, but the bus stop is circa 150 metres long (according to my father who checked today) for 1 bus every half an hour!

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=bournemout...0,10.5&z=16

[dazza.mk]

In terms of the particulars required in a Hiring Agreement to comply with Section 66 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988A

The below information was NOT included on the Delivery Acceptance Advice note, is this reason in itself to dispute?



SCHEDULE 2Particulars required in a Hiring Agreement to comply with Section 66 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988A.
Particulars of person signing statement of liability*
Date of birth.
Details of driving licence:(a)country where issued (if not UK),
(b)serial number or driver’s number,
©date of expiry (which should be no later than date specified in B7 below).

* Where the statement of liability is in Part II of form H, the full name and address of the person by or on whose behalf the statement of liability was signed should be supplied together with the date on which it was signed.
.Make and model of vehicle hired under the hiring agreement.
Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period.
Actual time and date of return of vehicle (or when vehicle returned out of hours time and date on which vehicle-hire firm next opened for business).† This requirement applies only to the vehicle hire firm’s copy of the hiring agreement.

[Neil B]

I imagine the RTRA 1988 detail is the origin of that now included in TMA.

Basically, as I see it so far, the hire co had the choice ---- pay a or make representations against the Notice to Owner - vehicle on hire - supplying details virtually the same as the RTRA section you quote. In either case they would probably charge you the £50 for handling it.

Bournemouth then issue new NtO to you - and you deal with it as you would any other.

Amount is crazy.
PCN would have been £70 and the only way discount of £35 would have applied was if it was a CCTV postal PCN - but I doubt that.

As far as BCC are concerned the pre registration debt would be £105 so this is wierd.

NOTE - if the debt is not registered, the DCA is powerless and can go jump - but you are right to be researching this to avoid near future problems.

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Still too many mysteries and outstanding questions.

Do you have the PCN number???
I suggest you contact BCC and establish exactly what has happened here - full sequence of events, date by date.

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Also NOTE -- If BCC received no response from the hire co, either payment or assignment to you, as you say has happened - then BCC have no right to be pursuing you at all. The hire co are the owner, you say failed to respond to NtO and Charge Cert - so it never became your problem in that way.

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That make sense?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 - 22:22

[qafqa]

PCN would have been £70 and the only way discount of £35 would have applied was if it was a CCTV postal PCN - but I doubt that.

It could be a postal PCN as Bournemouth have information about enforcement using their CCTV car
in the 2010-2011 Annual Parking Report.
http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/StreetsTrans...ng/Parking.aspx

The £70/£35 for 'stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand' is item 47 on this page,
http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/StreetsTrans...andCharges.aspx

This post has been edited by qafqa: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 - 22:47

[Neil B]

PCN would have been £70 and the only way discount of £35 would have applied was if it was a CCTV postal PCN - but I doubt that.

It could be a postal PCN as Bournemouth have information about enforcement using their CCTV car
in the 2010-2011 Annual Parking Report.
http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/StreetsTrans...ng/Parking.aspx

The £70/£35 for 'stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand' is item 47 on this page,
http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/StreetsTrans...andCharges.aspx

ok tks.

i won't bother going through how that might, in some possible circumstances, change the amount of Charge Cert - as it still doesn't work out and still shouldn't, from info so far, be OP's problem.

[dazza.mk]

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Also NOTE -- If BCC received no response from the hire co, either payment or assignment to you, as you say has happened - then BCC have no right to be pursuing you at all. The hire co are the owner, you say failed to respond to NtO and Charge Cert - so it never became your problem in that way.

--
That make sense?

Thanks for your reply Neil,

According to BCC the debt was paid by the hire company after the notice I mentioned above, and the ticket was a CCTV captured offence as such the letter from the Debt collection agency was issued on behalf of the hire company as opposed to Bournemouth Borough Council.
I just don't get why it went via a Debt Collector as the hire company obviously had all details as the car was delivered to our home address.

This post has been edited by dazza.mk: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 - 22:56

[Alexis]

Playing devil's advocate, if you're sure the penalty has been paid in full to the council and the hire company are just pursuing you for it's recovery through a debt collector, there is little they could do if you decided not to pay and to ignore them.

They may issue a county court claim, which would cost you £25 extra on top, but they're very very unlikely to bother.

Option B is to pay them what you think you owe them. You might achieve this by asking them to send you a copy of the original Notice to Owner and then reimbursing them the amount on there.

At the end of the day, you have the power and I would pay them what I morally think I owe them. Bear in mind a simple invoice from the original hire company would have been all that should have been required and any additional admin at their end seems to be a result of their own incompetence.

[Neil B]

Alexis speaketh sense.

- but can we just have a look at this please >

The 'proof' that they have sent is a 'Pre Debt Registration Notice' sent by Bournemouth Borough Council to the hire company for failure to respond to the Penalty Charge Notice and Notice to Owner threatening to register the debt against the Hire Company at the County Court.

See FAQs 'Read this first' on how to post images.

[dazza.mk]

Sorry for the delay replying: This was the only proof of debt provided by the debt collector and obviously we're not HHFS limited!, in fact its not even HHFS limited that the debt collector claim they are working on behalf of rather another company in the same group.

[Neil B]

£64 ?????

Now £105 makes sense - since I mentioned it earlier.

I still don't understand what this is.
We need to check the procedure -- for hire cos tfrring liability. I always thought they had to name you.

- but you say this agency is working on behalf of the hire co??? the hire co CAN'T register the debt for £5 at Northampton -- only BCC can -- (and it's £7 anyway).

You really need to check this with BCC. Some Councils do try it on with DCAs to avoid the £7 registration fee and paperwork. - but you say it's not them -- well they are talking as if acting for BCC!

You need to contact BCC and ask who is being held responsible for this debt -- held responsible by them, that is.

[dazza.mk]

Have already spoken to Bournemouth a couple of days ago and according to them the ticket was settled by the hire company shortly after the attachment was issued. I thought this made no sense was just checking I wasn't missing anything!

Thanks for your input.

[Neil B]

Have already spoken to Bournemouth a couple of days ago and according to them the ticket was settled by the hire company shortly after the attachment was issued.

Shortly after what was issued?? settled for how much?

[dazza.mk]

Sorry,

shortly after the Pre-Debt Registration letter was issued the £105 was settled by the Hire company

[Neil B]

ok. that equates to them paying 105 when they could have paid 35. Tough innit.

I'm still not sure where you stand but I'd lean towards what Alexis said earlier.

A DCA acting for the hire co cannot register a PCN debt at Northampton Cty Court (where they all go) for £5 or the actual up-to-date £7.

They could only proceed via small claims i believe - and given 70 of the 105 was their fault - are they likely to?

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I think I've just clicked - this was a courtesy car with you paying nothing hence hire co never had your debit/credit card details - is that right?