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Britannia PCN, ANPR, NTK arrived too late?
riccume
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:12
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Hello there,

This (hopefully) might be an easy one. I went through the MSE NEWBIES page and read through the POFA 2012 page. It seem to me that this NTK was sent too late:
Date of Contravention: 25/10/2019
Date of notice: 8/11/2019
Notice sent second class on 8/11/2019

I read in POFA 2012 Section 9:
(4) The notice must be given by
(b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period
(5) The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended
(6) A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales

Unless I am getting my math wrong, the relevant period for an NTK ended on 8/11/2019 (14 days after 25/10/2019). Britannia sent the NTK on the last day of the relevant period, 8/11/2019, and according to POFA 2012 9(6) this means that it is assumed to be delivered on 12/11/2019 (two working days after the day on which it is posted) i.e. after the end of the relevant period. Consequently, I am planning to appeal on the basis that the NTK is not valid. Would you agree?

I attach here the NTK.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by riccume: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 20:53
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post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:12
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ostell
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:49
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Yes you appeal using that. The NTK is assumed delivered on Tuesday 12th.

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


Thus should get you a POPLA code and when you add in the many other POFA fails they should allow your appeal

No creditor identified, no period of PARKING, no invitation to keeper, no warning of keeper liability.
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Sheffield Dave
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 19:18
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Unless it was a hire/lease car or similar, where you're not the registered keeper but merely the hirer.
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riccume
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 20:55
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 19:18) *
Unless it was a hire/lease car or similar, where you're not the registered keeper but merely the hirer.

Good point. Not a hire/lease car; I am the owner of this car.
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riccume
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:08
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 16:49) *
Yes you appeal using that. The NTK is assumed delivered on Tuesday 12th.

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


Thus should get you a POPLA code and when you add in the many other POFA fails they should allow your appeal

No creditor identified, no period of PARKING, no invitation to keeper, no warning of keeper liability.

Thanks and very kind of you to provide a draft of the appeal!
Out of curiosity: I understand the other comments in the last row of your post but what do you mean with "no invitation to keeper"?
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ostell
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:17
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Read POFA
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riccume
post Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 22:35
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:17) *
Read POFA

Thanks. Even more curious now! I believe you are referring to 9(2)(e). It was my understanding that this is satisfied by the text below in the PCN. Am I wrong?
Please be advised that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full.
As we do not know the drivers name or current address [satisfies 9(2)(e)], and if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and the current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them for payment. [satisfies 9(2)(e)(ii)]
If you were the driver at the time of the event you are required to pay or appeal the parking charge. [satisfies 9(2)(e)(i)]
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The Rookie
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 03:36
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Completely wrong......
The invitation is 9 (2) f
f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver

Can you find that?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 08:33
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QUOTE (riccume @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 22:35) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:17) *
Read POFA

Thanks. Even more curious now! I believe you are referring to 9(2)(e). It was my understanding that this is satisfied by the text below in the PCN. Am I wrong?
Please be advised that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full.
As we do not know the drivers name or current address [satisfies 9(2)(e)], and if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and the current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them for payment. [satisfies 9(2)(e)(ii)]
If you were the driver at the time of the event you are required to pay or appeal the parking charge. [satisfies 9(2)(e)(i)]



And when is "should" or "required" synonyms to "invite" ? 9 (2) (e) ((i) is about inviting the KEEPER to pay

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 08:35
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riccume
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:27
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 03:36) *
Completely wrong......
The invitation is 9 (2) f
f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver

Can you find that?

I agree, the NTK fails 9(2)(f). I thought ostell referred to this one when writing "no warning of keeper liability". My bad. Thanks.

QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 08:33) *
QUOTE (riccume @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 22:35) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 16 Nov 2019 - 21:17) *
Read POFA

Thanks. Even more curious now! I believe you are referring to 9(2)(e). It was my understanding that this is satisfied by the text below in the PCN. Am I wrong?
Please be advised that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full.
As we do not know the drivers name or current address [satisfies 9(2)(e)], and if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and the current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them for payment. [satisfies 9(2)(e)(ii)]
If you were the driver at the time of the event you are required to pay or appeal the parking charge. [satisfies 9(2)(e)(i)]



And when is "should" or "required" synonyms to "invite" ? 9 (2) (e) ((i) is about inviting the KEEPER to pay

When my wife "invites" me to do something, I am in no doubt that she means "should" or "required" wink.gif
Thanks again ostell. I will appeal and report back on outcome.

This post has been edited by riccume: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:31
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riccume
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 22:36
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Britannia has cancelled the ticket; reply here.

Interestingly, they say that their PCN is not POFA compliant (so the 14 days notification period doesn't apply) but they imply that the keeper is liable for the ticket under Contract Law if the identity of the driver isn't disclosed. Thoughts?

This post has been edited by riccume: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 22:36
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ostell
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 07:07
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Bovine Excreta
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Jlc
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 08:03
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There is no presumption the keeper was driving. They can of course pursue the keeper on the basis they were driving but would have to show on the balance of probabilities this was the case.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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