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Dart Charge Gone too far & can't undo?
Wheels
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:57
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Hi Folks

I am a disabled driver with three cars registered for congestion charge. My fully exempt car and two additional ones. So we went through the Dartford Tunnel and it had the same congestion charge symbol so I thought we were exempt from paying.

Alongside this I am a carer for my daughter who is a mental health patient and I deal with all her affairs and everything important is addressed to me. Unfortunately, we were in a car registered to her and the dart charge came to her. She usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything, so I did not know about it. When I found out I wrote to appeal and they decided we could pay the original £2.50, but unfortunately we did not get the letter and it ended up back with a penalty charge and they told me to appeal to the tec and they could then return to the £2.50 fee again, but not until then. So I did a TE7&9 and awaited a response. I had sent them in by email, wishing was acknowledged as processed and enforcement suspended on 11 August. I heard no more.

Today I get a frantic call from my hysterical daughter who said the bailiff was on his way to get £700 or he was taking her car. Her car is her lifeline, if I am in too much pain to get to her, or if she is having a panic attack, she can get to me, or another friend or family member for support. She had a complete meltdown.

I rang around trying to get to the bottom of it and yes they turned down the appeal, which we had not been informed about, having already said they would revert to the £2.50 fee, they have objected to the appeal and reverted to enforcement action for £425.50. This means that the tec knowing my daughter is a vulnerable mental health patient has sanctioned enforcement action and the bailiffs have tried to pursue her. At this moment I have pointed out the regulations with regard to vulnerable persons and enforcement action and they have agreed not to turn up at the house today, how long that will last I do not know? I just don't know what to do next, dart charge say I should appeal, but as I have not received the rejection I do not know what I am appealing?

Any thoughts on what to do next? Unfortunately I do not have any paperwork to upload?

Thanks in advance

Wheels.

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post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:57
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Incandescent
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 20:14
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Presumably the car used for the crossing was registered in your daughter's name. So all the statutory documents that precede bailiff action would have gone to her address. Can you confirm this, please. Have you managed to find any of them ?

However, a few questions -

1. You submitted reps and apparently a letter was sent asking for the £2.50 and the PCN would be cancelled. How do you know this if you never received the letter ?
2. You submitted a TE7/TE9 which was accepted on 11th August- how do you know this ?
3. After acceptance of the above, the original PCN remains outstanding - Did you ever contact DART again to find out what would happen next.
It does seem to me that DART management have acted with forebearance, but eventually, with no response from the recipient of the PCN, enforcement action starts and as you have found out soon generates very large sums of money.

The bottom line here is that the owner of the vehicle as recorded on the V5 is responsible for payment or appeal of all PCNs (parking, DART, bus lane etc). Yet the decision to use the Dartford Crossing and not to pay thinking you were exempt is yours.

I would strongly suggest you contact the following: -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

A small fee is payable, but nothing compared to the bailiff fees. You may find the matter too far gone to reverse it, but Sheila of the above website will know if it is possible or not.

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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:03
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I would add that you should consider changing the registration of the car. The registered keeper is responsible for dealing with all statutory notices from the Secretary of State, councils and the police. If the registered keeper is likely to stuff things in drawers without looking at them, that person is probably not suited to be a registered keeper at all and leaving the car in their name has the potential to lead to all sorts of further problems in the long run.

I don't want to scare you but as a worse case scenario, if a notice from the police and all subsequent paperwork were to be ignored, the ultimate outcome could be that the police turn up and arrest her and take her to court for non-payment of fines.


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peterguk
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:03) *
I would add that you should consider changing the registration of the car.


Why not just change the V5C address to your address?


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Wheels
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 21:14) *
Presumably the car used for the crossing was registered in your daughter's name. So all the statutory documents that precede bailiff action would have gone to her address. Can you confirm this, please. Have you managed to find any of them ?

However, a few questions -

1. You submitted reps and apparently a letter was sent asking for the £2.50 and the PCN would be cancelled. How do you know this if you never received the letter ?
2. You submitted a TE7/TE9 which was accepted on 11th August- how do you know this ?
3. After acceptance of the above, the original PCN remains outstanding - Did you ever contact DART again to find out what would happen next.
It does seem to me that DART management have acted with forebearance, but eventually, with no response from the recipient of the PCN, enforcement action starts and as you have found out soon generates very large sums of money.

The bottom line here is that the owner of the vehicle as recorded on the V5 is responsible for payment or appeal of all PCNs (parking, DART, bus lane etc). Yet the decision to use the Dartford Crossing and not to pay thinking you were exempt is yours.

I would strongly suggest you contact the following: -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

A small fee is payable, but nothing compared to the bailiff fees. You may find the matter too far gone to reverse it, but Sheila of the above website will know if it is possible or not.



Thank you for your response.

Yes the car was registered in my daughters name because it was kept at her address and any correspondence would have been addressed to her.

1. As I recall, bearing in mind my brain doesn't work too well either, i found a letter in a drawer. I rang and they told me to make a representation, which I did, and according to a later phone call when I was trying to find out what had happened as I hadn't heard anything they informed me that they had already issued a letter stating that they would accept the original £2.50. Obviously had I received this I would have paid it.

2. I wrote originally but they refused to deal with me without authority, so I drafted an email for my daughter to send via her email address. She did not receive a response. I chased again by email copying in my daughter and requesting that it be answered and sent to her directly. Then the bailiffs turned up, so my daughter had a melt down and I telephoned dart charge again and spoke to a chap who asked me to send in medical evidence of her mental health and he confirmed the original £2.50 letter, but said as there had been no payment it had gone back to penalty/enforcement and I needed to appeal to tec and once they had the evidence they could put it back to the £2.50. I sent in docs letter, wrote to the court via email supplying te7&9, and requested in the email to dart charge that they be proactive in preventing the bailiffs harassing my daughter as a vulnerable person by calling back the case. I sent several emails throughout July and August.

3. I received an email on 11 Aug saying the forms had been processed on 23/7 & enforcement suspended pending a response from the local authority. I forwarded this to Dart charge to show that the ball was back in their court and they could deal with it.
I received an acknowledgement, but no outcome from either party. Yet both parties knowing that my daughter was a vulnerable person both thought it okay to immediately send in the bailiffs? I do not think that this is working within the regulations.

It states also that vulnerable persons should not be charged fees for enforcement/recovery & no goods should be taken. So threatening immediately to come for full payment which she believed to be £700, or take her car and resulted in hysterics, was no a very sensitive way to deal with it.

I will look at the site thank you.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:03) *
I would add that you should consider changing the registration of the car. The registered keeper is responsible for dealing with all statutory notices from the Secretary of State, councils and the police. If the registered keeper is likely to stuff things in drawers without looking at them, that person is probably not suited to be a registered keeper at all and leaving the car in their name has the potential to lead to all sorts of further problems in the long run.

I don't want to scare you but as a worse case scenario, if a notice from the police and all subsequent paperwork were to be ignored, the ultimate outcome could be that the police turn up and arrest her and take her to court for non-payment of fines.



Yes I have had such conversations following a different one I found from a long time ago for somebody else driving the car and jumping a red light. By the time I found it court was the following week. I attended and gave details of the actual driver, and they gave a guilty verdict for failing to provide details, which given the circumstances I thought unfair, because I gave the details as soon as was possible and she did not open the letter so did not wilfully withhold the info. Fine & 6 points!

QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:07) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:03) *
I would add that you should consider changing the registration of the car.


Why not just change the V5C address to your address?

Thank you

Yes I would have, but I thought you had to have the car registered where it was kept, for insurance purposes, hence registered keeper as opposed to owner?
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:37
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Yes I have had such conversations following a different one I found from a long time ago for somebody else driving the car and jumping a red light. By the time I found it court was the following week. I attended and gave details of the actual driver, and they gave a guilty verdict for failing to provide details, which given the circumstances I thought unfair, because I gave the details as soon as was possible and she did not open the letter so did not wilfully withhold the info. Fine & 6 points!

This makes no sense. If you're not the registered keeper and you weren't the driver, it was nothing to do with you. Assuming you're not a lawyer you could not represent your daughter in court, and as she's the registered keeper only she could get the fine & points. Assuming that, notwithstanding her mental health problems, she has mental capacity to be a defendant to criminal proceedings, it sounds like she was guilty fair and square. Still, sounds like that's water under the bridge.

QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Yes I would have, but I thought you had to have the car registered where it was kept, for insurance purposes, hence registered keeper as opposed to owner?

There is no requirement for the car to be registered where it is kept, the legal requirement is simply that the address is an address at which the registered keeper can receive post. There is also no requirement whatsoever for the registered keeper's address to match the insurance address (If you think about it, lease companies are the registered keepers of thousands of cars but these cars are neither kept at the officer of the lease company, nor are they usually insured by the lease company), though if the policy holder isn't the registered keeper the insurance company normally wants to know about it.

Just changing the address wouldn't be helpful because most statutory notices, such as PCNs and police s172s can only be dealt with by the registered keeper, you wouldn't be able to reply on her behalf. Therefore the most sensible course of action to avoid a repeat would be to:

A: Change the V5C so you're the registered keeper, at your address
B: Notify the insurance company that you are now the resisted keeper. This might add a small amount (say £10 - £30) to the insurance premium, but given how much hassle this has caused already I think t would be worth it.


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Wheels
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 22:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:37) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Yes I have had such conversations following a different one I found from a long time ago for somebody else driving the car and jumping a red light. By the time I found it court was the following week. I attended and gave details of the actual driver, and they gave a guilty verdict for failing to provide details, which given the circumstances I thought unfair, because I gave the details as soon as was possible and she did not open the letter so did not wilfully withhold the info. Fine & 6 points!

This makes no sense. If you're not the registered keeper and you weren't the driver, it was nothing to do with you. Assuming you're not a lawyer you could not represent your daughter in court, and as she's the registered keeper only she could get the fine & points. Assuming that, notwithstanding her mental health problems, she has mental capacity to be a defendant to criminal proceedings, it sounds like she was guilty fair and square. Still, sounds like that's water under the bridge.
!

QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Yes I would have, but I thought you had to have the car registered where it was kept, for insurance purposes, hence registered keeper as opposed to owner?

There is no requirement for the car to be registered where it is kept, the legal requirement is simply that the address is an address at which the registered keeper can receive post. There is also no requirement whatsoever for the registered keeper's address to match the insurance address (If you think about it, lease companies are the registered keepers of thousands of cars but these cars are neither kept at the officer of the lease company, nor are they usually insured by the lease company), though if the policy holder isn't the registered keeper the insurance company normally wants to know about it.

Just changing the address wouldn't be helpful because most statutory notices, such as PCNs and police s172s can only be dealt with by the registered keeper, you wouldn't be able to reply on her behalf. Therefore the most sensible course of action to avoid a repeat would be to:

A: Change the V5C so you're the registered keeper, at your address
B: Notify the insurance company that you are now the resisted keeper. This might add a small amount (say £10 - £30) to the insurance premium, but given how much hassle this has caused already I think t would be worth it.


I went to court to support my daughter, but due to her anxiety she was unable to attend and so I went alone, I was allowed to speak, having supplied docs letter and my appointeeship form. I am Nearest Relative for her as a mental health patient too. They did not wait for her to attend, they gave cps option to drop the case given the circs, but they refused, so they held the trial in her absence. So, no, not guilty, she wasn't the driver, I wasn't and the driver was happy for their details to be supplied as soon as we found out about it, so no reason to withhold. They should have adjourned to give her a chance to attend, it is appealable, but frankly with my poor brain I have enough to deal with already.

Thankfully we don't have that particular car anymore, but I take your point. However, I have been made to declare to my insurance in the past each time my car is not at home or risk my insurance not being valid. Therefore if the car is not where I am and is parked safely on the drive where there's room I thought that was correct, especially as some companies refuse your application if the owner is not the registered keeper.

This post has been edited by Wheels: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:02
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:11
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:58) *
Thankfully we don't have that particular car anymore, but I take your point. However, I have been made to declare to my insurance in the past each time my car is not at home or risk my insurance not being valid. Therefore if the car is not where I am and is parked safely on the drive where there's room I thought that was correct, especially as some companies refuse your application if the owner is not the registered keeper.

There is no automatic connection between the registered keeper and the policyholder. The insurance company must be given the address where the car is kept 4 nights a week or more, but nothing says this must match the address on the V5C. If the insurance company won't allow the policyholder to not be the registered keeper, change insurance company, but to be honest most companies will allow this, either for free or for a very modest increase in the premium.


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Wheels
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 00:11) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:58) *
Thankfully we don't have that particular car anymore, but I take your point. However, I have been made to declare to my insurance in the past each time my car is not at home or risk my insurance not being valid. Therefore if the car is not where I am and is parked safely on the drive where there's room I thought that was correct, especially as some companies refuse your application if the owner is not the registered keeper.

There is no automatic connection between the registered keeper and the policyholder. The insurance company must be given the address where the car is kept 4 nights a week or more, but nothing says this must match the address on the V5C. If the insurance company won't allow the policyholder to not be the registered keeper, change insurance company, but to be honest most companies will allow this, either for free or for a very modest increase in the premium.


Thank you. I did change insurance because I did think it unreasonable at the time, but insurance companies are so good at wriggling out of things, it is always in the back of my mind, what if? Thankfully the car has gone now, one less to worry about.
W
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Neil B
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:28
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As far as I can see, at no point have you mentioned receiving notification from TEC that your TE7 OOT application
has been refused; yet the bailiff has returned.
I suggest you phone TEC pronto and get the truth of the current position. 0300 123 1059

£700 ?
I know you've mentioned £425.50 (a correct amount) but I'd be wondering whether your daughter's
perception has foundation.
A figure iro 700 represents MORE than one PCN.
Perhaps the bailiff is pursuing others you don't know about? Check the PCN number(s) !

We must SEE >
-- Your OOT application.
-- Bailiff notices.
-- Correspondence with Dart.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Wheels
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:39
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 00:28) *
As far as I can see, at no point have you mentioned receiving notification from TEC that your TE7 OOT application
has been refused; yet the bailiff has returned.
I suggest you phone TEC pronto and get the truth of the current position. 0300 123 1059

£700 ?
I know you've mentioned £425.50 (a correct amount) but I'd be wondering whether your daughter's
perception has foundation.
A figure iro 700 represents MORE than one PCN.
Perhaps the bailiff is pursuing others you don't know about? Check the PCN number(s) !

We must SEE >
-- Your OOT application.
-- Bailiff notices.
-- Correspondence with Dart.


Thank you. My daughter said the bailiff said that on the phone, whether that was scaremongering on what it would escalate to if she didn't pay I don't know, but she was extremely upset, so I doubt she imagined it. We sent docs letter by message and then he texted with £425.50, of which the penalty charge is £115. I did question the fees given the regs and vulnerable persons, but he didn't care to elaborate. He has agreed not to return as long as we don't ignore it, which we have no intention to, it's far too distressing.

No OOT response received, as they had acknowledged by email, I expected the outcome by email too, so didn't think to watch the mail carefully, but I didn't see in mail anyway, bailiffs told me it was refused and they were given immediate direction to enforce, I think he said that was on 7th, but I can check? No bailiffs notice, except the text after the phonecall. No response from Dart either, also by email. Hence why my daughter went into meltdown, we knew nothing and she didn't want her car taken.

W

This post has been edited by Wheels: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:44
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Neil B
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 08:17
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 00:39) *
No OOT response received, as they had acknowledged by email, I expected the outcome by email too, so didn't think to watch the mail carefully, but I didn't see in mail anyway, bailiffs told me it was refused and they were given immediate direction to enforce, I think he said that was on 7th, but I can check? No bailiffs notice, except the text after the phonecall. No response from Dart either, also by email. Hence why my daughter went into meltdown, we knew nothing and she didn't want her car taken.

W

I understand it's a traumatic situation but you're questioning rather than acting.

You need to do as I suggested.

-
Also.
I'm confused by this bit >
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
'3. I received an email on 11 Aug saying the forms had been processed on 23/7 & enforcement suspended pending a response from the local authority.

TEC acknowledgement e-mails are auto generated within minutes, not 19 days?

As I said, we need to SEE everything.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bailiff Advice
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 13:18
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:57) *
Unfortunately, we were in a car registered to her and the dart charge came to her. She usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything, so I did not know about it.

When I found out I wrote to appeal and they decided we could pay the original £2.50, but unfortunately we did not get the letter and it ended up back with a penalty charge and they told me to appeal to the tec and they could then return to the £2.50 fee again, but not until then. So I did a TE7&9 and awaited a response. I had sent them in by email, wishing was acknowledged as processed and enforcement suspended on 11 August. I heard no more.

I rang around trying to get to the bottom of it and yes they turned down the appeal, which we had not been informed about, having already said they would revert to the £2.50 fee, they have objected to the appeal and reverted to enforcement action for £425.50.

This means that the tec knowing my daughter is a vulnerable mental health patient has sanctioned enforcement action and the bailiffs have tried to pursue her.


As I have said on so many occasions, members of the public should not be completing Out of Time witness statements (or statutory declarations) without first seeking advice.

You have stated that your daughter (who is the registered keeper) had received the initial Dart Charge Penalty Charge Notice. You have also stated that your daughter 'usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything'. As she had received the initial PCN, it would be hard to argue that you had not received the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery as well.

After completing an Out of Time witness statement and emailing the forms to the Traffic Enforcement Centre you state that a letter advising of the rejection has not been received. Are you sure that your daughter had not discarded this notice and put it into a drawer without reading it?

Without knowing what had been written on the OOT application, it is difficult to comment on whether the rejection was fair or not. Suffice to say, if all notices had been correctly addressed and the same address appeared on the OOT application, it is difficult to argue that correspondence had not been received.

Just to reassure you, TEC do not make the decision on whether to accept or reject your daughters application. The decision would have been made by Highways England.

This new page Traffic Enforcement Centre FAQ's has recently been added to my website.

This post has been edited by Bailiff Advice: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 13:20
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Wheels
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 15:33
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Thank you. My bat is flat, I’ll post when I get back home.
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Bailiff Advice
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:03
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Thank you for your response.

Yes the car was registered in my daughters name because it was kept at her address and any correspondence would have been addressed to her.

1. As I recall, bearing in mind my brain doesn't work too well either, i found a letter in a drawer. I rang and they told me to make a representation, which I did, and according to a later phone call when I was trying to find out what had happened as I hadn't heard anything they informed me that they had already issued a letter stating that they would accept the original £2.50. Obviously had I received this I would have paid it.

I received an acknowledgement, but no outcome from either party. Yet both parties knowing that my daughter was a vulnerable person both thought it okay to immediately send in the bailiffs? I do not think that this is working within the regulations.

It states also that vulnerable persons should not be charged fees for enforcement/recovery & no goods should be taken. So threatening immediately to come for full payment which she believed to be £700, or take her car and resulted in hysterics, was no a very sensitive way to deal with it.

I will look at the site thank you.


You mention that 'vulnerable persons should not be charged fees of enforcement /recovery and no goods should be taken'. Can you let me know where you obtained this advice from?

Also, as your daughter has mental health problems, can you post back to let us know whether she is in paid employment or unemployed and in receipt of benefits. (This is important when considering whether or not she could seek a 'review' of the refusal of her OOT). Lastly, does she have a disabled Blue Badge? If so, is it displayed in her car?

This post has been edited by Bailiff Advice: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:09
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 17:24
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In concert with all the advice you have and will receive regarding your OOT. Go onto the twitter page of dart charge and tell your story, there is a good chance they will communicate with you and accept the crossing fee if you explain yourself correctly


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Wheels
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:50
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QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:03) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Thank you for your response.

Yes the car was registered in my daughters name because it was kept at her address and any correspondence would have been addressed to her.

1. As I recall, bearing in mind my brain doesn't work too well either, i found a letter in a drawer. I rang and they told me to make a representation, which I did, and according to a later phone call when I was trying to find out what had happened as I hadn't heard anything they informed me that they had already issued a letter stating that they would accept the original £2.50. Obviously had I received this I would have paid it.

I received an acknowledgement, but no outcome from either party. Yet both parties knowing that my daughter was a vulnerable person both thought it okay to immediately send in the bailiffs? I do not think that this is working within the regulations.

It states also that vulnerable persons should not be charged fees for enforcement/recovery & no goods should be taken. So threatening immediately to come for full payment which she believed to be £700, or take her car and resulted in hysterics, was no a very sensitive way to deal with it.

I will look at the site thank you.


You mention that 'vulnerable persons should not be charged fees of enforcement /recovery and no goods should be taken'. Can you let me know where you obtained this advice from?

Also, as your daughter has mental health problems, can you post back to let us know whether she is in paid employment or unemployed and in receipt of benefits. (This is important when considering whether or not she could seek a 'review' of the refusal of her OOT). Lastly, does she have a disabled Blue Badge? If so, is it displayed in her car?


My daughter is unable to work due to her mental health and is in receipt of disability benefits. I am the holder of the blue badge for my physical disabilities and had her car on my congestion charge exemption. According to Dart Charge I have a couple of days left to appeal, but without the paperwork I do not know what to appeal.

I found the info on www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/BailiffsVulnerableHouseholds.htm.

W


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:24) *
In concert with all the advice you have and will receive regarding your OOT. Go onto the twitter page of dart charge and tell your story, there is a good chance they will communicate with you and accept the crossing fee if you explain yourself correctly


I will try this, thank you PMB.

QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 14:18) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:57) *
Unfortunately, we were in a car registered to her and the dart charge came to her. She usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything, so I did not know about it.

When I found out I wrote to appeal and they decided we could pay the original £2.50, but unfortunately we did not get the letter and it ended up back with a penalty charge and they told me to appeal to the tec and they could then return to the £2.50 fee again, but not until then. So I did a TE7&9 and awaited a response. I had sent them in by email, wishing was acknowledged as processed and enforcement suspended on 11 August. I heard no more.

I rang around trying to get to the bottom of it and yes they turned down the appeal, which we had not been informed about, having already said they would revert to the £2.50 fee, they have objected to the appeal and reverted to enforcement action for £425.50.

This means that the tec knowing my daughter is a vulnerable mental health patient has sanctioned enforcement action and the bailiffs have tried to pursue her.


As I have said on so many occasions, members of the public should not be completing Out of Time witness statements (or statutory declarations) without first seeking advice.

You have stated that your daughter (who is the registered keeper) had received the initial Dart Charge Penalty Charge Notice. You have also stated that your daughter 'usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything'. As she had received the initial PCN, it would be hard to argue that you had not received the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery as well.

After completing an Out of Time witness statement and emailing the forms to the Traffic Enforcement Centre you state that a letter advising of the rejection has not been received. Are you sure that your daughter had not discarded this notice and put it into a drawer without reading it?

Without knowing what had been written on the OOT application, it is difficult to comment on whether the rejection was fair or not. Suffice to say, if all notices had been correctly addressed and the same address appeared on the OOT application, it is difficult to argue that correspondence had not been received.

Just to reassure you, TEC do not make the decision on whether to accept or reject your daughters application. The decision would have been made by Highways England.

This new page Traffic Enforcement Centre FAQ's has recently been added to my website.


On the TE9 two boxes were 1) I did not receive the Notice to Owner & 2) I appealed against the charging authority's decision to reject my representation within 28 days of rejection & have had no response to my appeal.

On the TE7 reason box stated "The previous appeal was upheld and the Dartford crossing inform me that they sent out a letter giving me permission to pay the original crossing fee. I did not receive this letter, otherwise I would have paid the it immediately, so they have advised me to appeal again because it has progressed further without me knowing or receiving letters. This is my appeal.

W
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peterguk
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:16
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,735
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (Wheels @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:50) *
QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:03) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Thank you for your response.

Yes the car was registered in my daughters name because it was kept at her address and any correspondence would have been addressed to her.

1. As I recall, bearing in mind my brain doesn't work too well either, i found a letter in a drawer. I rang and they told me to make a representation, which I did, and according to a later phone call when I was trying to find out what had happened as I hadn't heard anything they informed me that they had already issued a letter stating that they would accept the original £2.50. Obviously had I received this I would have paid it.

I received an acknowledgement, but no outcome from either party. Yet both parties knowing that my daughter was a vulnerable person both thought it okay to immediately send in the bailiffs? I do not think that this is working within the regulations.

It states also that vulnerable persons should not be charged fees for enforcement/recovery & no goods should be taken. So threatening immediately to come for full payment which she believed to be £700, or take her car and resulted in hysterics, was no a very sensitive way to deal with it.

I will look at the site thank you.


You mention that 'vulnerable persons should not be charged fees of enforcement /recovery and no goods should be taken'. Can you let me know where you obtained this advice from?

Also, as your daughter has mental health problems, can you post back to let us know whether she is in paid employment or unemployed and in receipt of benefits. (This is important when considering whether or not she could seek a 'review' of the refusal of her OOT). Lastly, does she have a disabled Blue Badge? If so, is it displayed in her car?


My daughter is unable to work due to her mental health and is in receipt of disability benefits. I am the holder of the blue badge for my physical disabilities and had her car on my congestion charge exemption. According to Dart Charge I have a couple of days left to appeal, but without the paperwork I do not know what to appeal.

I found the info on www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/BailiffsVulnerableHouseholds.htm.

W


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:24) *
In concert with all the advice you have and will receive regarding your OOT. Go onto the twitter page of dart charge and tell your story, there is a good chance they will communicate with you and accept the crossing fee if you explain yourself correctly


I will try this, thank you PMB.

QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 14:18) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:57) *
Unfortunately, we were in a car registered to her and the dart charge came to her. She usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything, so I did not know about it.

When I found out I wrote to appeal and they decided we could pay the original £2.50, but unfortunately we did not get the letter and it ended up back with a penalty charge and they told me to appeal to the tec and they could then return to the £2.50 fee again, but not until then. So I did a TE7&9 and awaited a response. I had sent them in by email, wishing was acknowledged as processed and enforcement suspended on 11 August. I heard no more.

I rang around trying to get to the bottom of it and yes they turned down the appeal, which we had not been informed about, having already said they would revert to the £2.50 fee, they have objected to the appeal and reverted to enforcement action for £425.50.

This means that the tec knowing my daughter is a vulnerable mental health patient has sanctioned enforcement action and the bailiffs have tried to pursue her.


As I have said on so many occasions, members of the public should not be completing Out of Time witness statements (or statutory declarations) without first seeking advice.

You have stated that your daughter (who is the registered keeper) had received the initial Dart Charge Penalty Charge Notice. You have also stated that your daughter 'usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything'. As she had received the initial PCN, it would be hard to argue that you had not received the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery as well.

After completing an Out of Time witness statement and emailing the forms to the Traffic Enforcement Centre you state that a letter advising of the rejection has not been received. Are you sure that your daughter had not discarded this notice and put it into a drawer without reading it?

Without knowing what had been written on the OOT application, it is difficult to comment on whether the rejection was fair or not. Suffice to say, if all notices had been correctly addressed and the same address appeared on the OOT application, it is difficult to argue that correspondence had not been received.

Just to reassure you, TEC do not make the decision on whether to accept or reject your daughters application. The decision would have been made by Highways England.

This new page Traffic Enforcement Centre FAQ's has recently been added to my website.


On the TE9 two boxes were 1) I did not receive the Notice to Owner & 2) I appealed against the charging authority's decision to reject my representation within 28 days of rejection & have had no response to my appeal.

On the TE7 reason box stated "The previous appeal was upheld and the Dartford crossing inform me that they sent out a letter giving me permission to pay the original crossing fee. I did not receive this letter, otherwise I would have paid the it immediately, so they have advised me to appeal again because it has progressed further without me knowing or receiving letters. This is my appeal.

W


Surely no letters will have been sent to you. They will have been sent to your daughter, who you say hides them.


--------------------
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Wheels
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:23
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 192
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Member No.: 50,542



QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:16) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:50) *
QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:03) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
Thank you for your response.

Yes the car was registered in my daughters name because it was kept at her address and any correspondence would have been addressed to her.

1. As I recall, bearing in mind my brain doesn't work too well either, i found a letter in a drawer. I rang and they told me to make a representation, which I did, and according to a later phone call when I was trying to find out what had happened as I hadn't heard anything they informed me that they had already issued a letter stating that they would accept the original £2.50. Obviously had I received this I would have paid it.

I received an acknowledgement, but no outcome from either party. Yet both parties knowing that my daughter was a vulnerable person both thought it okay to immediately send in the bailiffs? I do not think that this is working within the regulations.

It states also that vulnerable persons should not be charged fees for enforcement/recovery & no goods should be taken. So threatening immediately to come for full payment which she believed to be £700, or take her car and resulted in hysterics, was no a very sensitive way to deal with it.

I will look at the site thank you.


You mention that 'vulnerable persons should not be charged fees of enforcement /recovery and no goods should be taken'. Can you let me know where you obtained this advice from?

Also, as your daughter has mental health problems, can you post back to let us know whether she is in paid employment or unemployed and in receipt of benefits. (This is important when considering whether or not she could seek a 'review' of the refusal of her OOT). Lastly, does she have a disabled Blue Badge? If so, is it displayed in her car?


My daughter is unable to work due to her mental health and is in receipt of disability benefits. I am the holder of the blue badge for my physical disabilities and had her car on my congestion charge exemption. According to Dart Charge I have a couple of days left to appeal, but without the paperwork I do not know what to appeal.

I found the info on www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/BailiffsVulnerableHouseholds.htm.

W


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 18:24) *
In concert with all the advice you have and will receive regarding your OOT. Go onto the twitter page of dart charge and tell your story, there is a good chance they will communicate with you and accept the crossing fee if you explain yourself correctly


I will try this, thank you PMB.

QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 14:18) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:57) *
Unfortunately, we were in a car registered to her and the dart charge came to her. She usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything, so I did not know about it.

When I found out I wrote to appeal and they decided we could pay the original £2.50, but unfortunately we did not get the letter and it ended up back with a penalty charge and they told me to appeal to the tec and they could then return to the £2.50 fee again, but not until then. So I did a TE7&9 and awaited a response. I had sent them in by email, wishing was acknowledged as processed and enforcement suspended on 11 August. I heard no more.

I rang around trying to get to the bottom of it and yes they turned down the appeal, which we had not been informed about, having already said they would revert to the £2.50 fee, they have objected to the appeal and reverted to enforcement action for £425.50.

This means that the tec knowing my daughter is a vulnerable mental health patient has sanctioned enforcement action and the bailiffs have tried to pursue her.


As I have said on so many occasions, members of the public should not be completing Out of Time witness statements (or statutory declarations) without first seeking advice.

You have stated that your daughter (who is the registered keeper) had received the initial Dart Charge Penalty Charge Notice. You have also stated that your daughter 'usually stuffs things in cupboards and drawers and doesn't read anything'. As she had received the initial PCN, it would be hard to argue that you had not received the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery as well.

After completing an Out of Time witness statement and emailing the forms to the Traffic Enforcement Centre you state that a letter advising of the rejection has not been received. Are you sure that your daughter had not discarded this notice and put it into a drawer without reading it?

Without knowing what had been written on the OOT application, it is difficult to comment on whether the rejection was fair or not. Suffice to say, if all notices had been correctly addressed and the same address appeared on the OOT application, it is difficult to argue that correspondence had not been received.

Just to reassure you, TEC do not make the decision on whether to accept or reject your daughters application. The decision would have been made by Highways England.

This new page Traffic Enforcement Centre FAQ's has recently been added to my website.


On the TE9 two boxes were 1) I did not receive the Notice to Owner & 2) I appealed against the charging authority's decision to reject my representation within 28 days of rejection & have had no response to my appeal.

On the TE7 reason box stated "The previous appeal was upheld and the Dartford crossing inform me that they sent out a letter giving me permission to pay the original crossing fee. I did not receive this letter, otherwise I would have paid the it immediately, so they have advised me to appeal again because it has progressed further without me knowing or receiving letters. This is my appeal.

W


Surely no letters will have been sent to you. They will have been sent to your daughter, who you say hides them.



I spoke to them on the phone, they explained they sent the letter saying I could pay the original fee. It was addressed to my daughter, but as it was my disabled exemption that was not explained properly or understood, it is my responsibility to pay the fee. Hence why the points overlap. Please excuse me if it doesn't come across very well, my brain does not work well on a good day, when stressed less so. Today the bailiffs have been sending texts to me and to my daughter saying they are in the area with anpr cameras searching for her car. This is distressing her immensely.

W

This post has been edited by Wheels: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 19:24
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Wheels
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:02
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 192
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Member No.: 50,542



QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 09:17) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 00:39) *
No OOT response received, as they had acknowledged by email, I expected the outcome by email too, so didn't think to watch the mail carefully, but I didn't see in mail anyway, bailiffs told me it was refused and they were given immediate direction to enforce, I think he said that was on 7th, but I can check? No bailiffs notice, except the text after the phonecall. No response from Dart either, also by email. Hence why my daughter went into meltdown, we knew nothing and she didn't want her car taken.

W

I understand it's a traumatic situation but you're questioning rather than acting.

You need to do as I suggested.

-
Also.
I'm confused by this bit >
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 23:20) *
'3. I received an email on 11 Aug saying the forms had been processed on 23/7 & enforcement suspended pending a response from the local authority.

TEC acknowledgement e-mails are auto generated within minutes, not 19 days?

As I said, we need to SEE everything.


Thank you NeilB & sorry I missed some responses, so just to be clear, I hope & not confuse further.

Originally I sent an email chasing the appeal on 16 July asking for them to respond to my daughter as nothing had been heard. I sent the next appeal via email in the TE7&9 on 20July, individually, for which I had two acknowledgements immediately. I cross referenced the emails, but TEC wrote back stating that my TE9 could not be processed because I had not sent in the TE7. I explained and they requested I sent them again together on the same email. Eventually I worked out how to do this technically and had an immediate response on 23 July. They replied on 27th saying they didn't have authority to deal with me, so I requested that they send their response to my daughter's email, copying her in. Meanwhile I asked her to email in authority, she did, so they then sent the email on the 11 Aug to us both. I forwarded to dart charge & they replied that we should wait to hear from them. Then nothing from anyone.

I tried to contact tec via phone yday without success. I had emergency to A&E to deal with this am. I've tried all pm to get through to JBW after texts sent about anpr cameras searching for my daughter's car, I kept getting cut off no matter what number I pressed, so rang the bailiff mobile & he said he'd pass message on but to keep trying. So no joy today. I will try again tomorrow to see what the info is & what time is left.

Also, I know my daughter doesn't open letters and stuffs in drawers, so I have searched everywhere & haven't found anything.

Hope I've not confused matters here more? 😰

This post has been edited by Wheels: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:04
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