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ZIg Zags, - overtaking/passing on them
jm2
post Sun, 25 Oct 2020 - 18:23
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Following another thread I'd read, I got thinking (dangerous I know) of the strict law re- Zig Zags.
Pelican crossing or traffic light controlled - I can't see it making a difference.

If there were two lanes (or more) in a given direction and no predestrians waiting to cross (nor anything but a green light); is it permissible to pass a vehicle in lane one whilst travelling in lane two. Indeed is permissible to pass anything.

I had thought of course it is permissible (normal traffic flow/driving) but the original thread highlighted it being an offence to overtake in the zig zags (which is stated - but I'd taken to refer to overtaking on a normal (single carridgeway) road.

Not looking for a flamepit argument just some deep thought (and maybe real truths).


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post Sun, 25 Oct 2020 - 18:23
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666
post Sun, 25 Oct 2020 - 18:42
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It doesn't matter how many lanes there are.

The Highway Code says "You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.", and the full regualation is here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/24...ulation/24/made
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DancingDad
post Sun, 25 Oct 2020 - 20:14
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QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 25 Oct 2020 - 18:42) *
It doesn't matter how many lanes there are.

The Highway Code says "You MUST NOT overtake the moving vehicle nearest the crossing or the vehicle nearest the crossing which has stopped to give way to pedestrians.", and the full regualation is here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/24...ulation/24/made

Those have been revoked.... now in TSRGD 2016, Schedule 14
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...chedule/14/made
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 25 Oct 2020 - 22:19
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The exact rule is you can't pass the front of the vehicle nearest the crossing at any point in the zig zags, with any part of your vehicle. So if hypothetically there were multiple vehicles who had stopped for a red light in lane one, you could overtake them within the zig zags as long as when you reached the car nearest to the crossing you made sure you did not move in front of it.

Not much use around here as there seems to be some unwritten rule that at every set of traffic lights with two lanes a Dacia owner will go to the front of lane 2, then set off at glacial speed whilst everyone in lane 1 undertakes them. But potentially useful for tripping a witness up in court as I suspect many will assume the rule is simpler "no overtaking".


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cymromon
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:46
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So a bus or lorry in lane 1 at a set of lights is joined in lane 2 by a car at the stop line
That car in lane 2 is not permitted to get ahead of the bus until it is past the zigzag area beyond the crossing?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 13:52
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15.—(1) Without prejudice to paragraph 14, a zig-zag line in a signal-controlled crossing facility controlled area conveys the requirement that, whilst any motor vehicle (“the approaching vehicle”), or any part of it, is within the limits of the controlled area and is proceeding towards the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates, the driver of the vehicle must not cause it or any part of it to pass ahead of the foremost part of—

(a)any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction
(b)a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with a traffic light signal for controlling vehicular traffic.

The relevant part is proceeding towards so once past the crossing you may overtake


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The Rookie
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 14:25
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You also have the issue that if approaching the crossing level (well just behind) with another car that suddenly decides to stop (as they do for someone approaching to cross) you may well then break the law with no reasonable ability not to.


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mickR
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 18:16
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And if youre beside a vehicle, still behind the line and therefore within the controlled area you cant pull away untill they do huh.gif
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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:07
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Hold on - let's say it's a dual carriageway with a. 40mph limit. You are doing 40 in the outside lane; a vehicle in the inside lane is doing 30. There's a crossing ahead with a. green light. Do you have to slow to 30 if the overtake is within the zig zag zone?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:16
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:07) *
Hold on - let's say it's a dual carriageway with a. 40mph limit. You are doing 40 in the outside lane; a vehicle in the inside lane is doing 30. There's a crossing ahead with a. green light. Do you have to slow to 30 if the overtake is within the zig zag zone?



Yes. Think about it someone may only see the slow moving car on the inside and think I can make that, runs across straight into the path of a faster moving car

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:18


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cymromon
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:26
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Likewise it appears in 15 (1) (b) if there are several vehicles stationary in L1 and none in L2, no vehicle can legally get to the stop line in L2 without committing an offence

So if the bus, for example, was there, you could use L2, but if a car was stopped behind it you would fall foul of the law?
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stamfordman
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:44
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:16) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:07) *
Hold on - let's say it's a dual carriageway with a. 40mph limit. You are doing 40 in the outside lane; a vehicle in the inside lane is doing 30. There's a crossing ahead with a. green light. Do you have to slow to 30 if the overtake is within the zig zag zone?



Yes. Think about it someone may only see the slow moving car on the inside and think I can make that, runs across straight into the path of a faster moving car



Well I've never seen this by anyone in many years driving and I certainly haven't done it myself. I'm not sure a pedestrian who run out into a dual carriageway against a green light has such protection.
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:46
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:44) *
Well I've never seen this by anyone in many years driving and I certainly haven't done it myself. I'm not sure a pedestrian who run out into a dual carriageway against a green light has such protection.

Maybe not under the TSRGD but in negligence they may well have a degree of protection.


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jm2
post Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 16:14
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Well I am in awe. Not at the people who can't read my para 2 (but I am as well), but that this is less known outside the font of knowledge here.

To confirm then, as correctly surmised above, say two lanes say 40mph limit, Mr Steady doing 30mph in lane one means I cannot (legally) pass him at 38mph at the crossing point (no one waiting, no one using the crossing, any lights on green). Even if I'm part way through a pass I must hold back.

Thanks.


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666
post Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 16:33
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QUOTE (jm2 @ Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 16:14) *
Well I am in awe. Not at the people who can't read my para 2 (but I am as well), but that this is less known outside the font of knowledge here.

To confirm then, as correctly surmised above, say two lanes say 40mph limit, Mr Steady doing 30mph in lane one means I cannot (legally) pass him at 38mph at the crossing point (no one waiting, no one using the crossing, any lights on green). Even if I'm part way through a pass I must hold back.

Thanks.

Indeed. Precisely as you should have read in the HC to pass your test.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 21:54
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QUOTE (jm2 @ Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 16:14) *
Well I am in awe. Not at the people who can't read my para 2 (but I am as well), but that this is less known outside the font of knowledge here.

To confirm then, as correctly surmised above, say two lanes say 40mph limit, Mr Steady doing 30mph in lane one means I cannot (legally) pass him at 38mph at the crossing point (no one waiting, no one using the crossing, any lights on green). Even if I'm part way through a pass I must hold back.

Thanks.



You can't go through red lights because nothing is coming the other way

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:44) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:16) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 19:07) *
Hold on - let's say it's a dual carriageway with a. 40mph limit. You are doing 40 in the outside lane; a vehicle in the inside lane is doing 30. There's a crossing ahead with a. green light. Do you have to slow to 30 if the overtake is within the zig zag zone?



Yes. Think about it someone may only see the slow moving car on the inside and think I can make that, runs across straight into the path of a faster moving car



Well I've never seen this by anyone in many years driving and I certainly haven't done it myself. I'm not sure a pedestrian who run out into a dual carriageway against a green light has such protection.


What protection? They would be hit by the car. Was the driver negligent? If breaking the law then I suggest they would carry a greater degree of blame than not


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bill w
post Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 22:28
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QUOTE (cymromon @ Mon, 26 Oct 2020 - 20:26) *
Likewise it appears in 15 (1) (b) if there are several vehicles stationary in L1 and none in L2, no vehicle can legally get to the stop line in L2 without committing an offence

So if the bus, for example, was there, you could use L2, but if a car was stopped behind it you would fall foul of the law?


I don't think that's the case, as the whole of section 15 wasn't quoted in this thread See Here

"15.—(1) Without prejudice to paragraph 14, a zig-zag line in a signal-controlled crossing facility controlled area conveys the requirement that, whilst any motor vehicle (“the approaching vehicle”), or any part of it, is within the limits of the controlled area and is proceeding towards the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates, the driver of the vehicle must not cause it or any part of it to pass ahead of the foremost part of—
(a)any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction
(b)a vehicle which is stationary for the purpose of complying with a traffic light signal for controlling vehicular traffic.
This bit was missing
(2) In sub-paragraph (1)—
(a)the reference to a motor vehicle in paragraph (a) is, in a case where more than one motor vehicle is proceeding in the same direction as the approaching vehicle in a controlled area, a reference to the motor vehicle nearest to the signal-controlled crossing facility crossing to which the controlled area relates; and
(b)the reference to a stationary vehicle is, in a case where more than one vehicle is stationary in a controlled area for the purpose of complying with the indication given by a traffic light signal for controlling vehicular traffic, a reference to the stationary vehicle nearest the signal-controlled crossing facility to which the controlled area relates.


If I read it correctly 15.-(2) (b) covers that, as it defines the stationary vehicle, in this case, as the one which is closest to the signal

I think I'm reading that correctly
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cymromon
post Tue, 27 Oct 2020 - 22:53
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Yes I agree that you are. Thanks for posting that smile.gif
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