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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ TfL Code 46 - How to appeal

Posted by: jayu619 Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 23:08
Post #1465312

Hi All,

My father got a ticket for parking on a red route, outside the times of 10am-4pm...e parked at 5pm.
Below are picture of the PCN. Can anything be done to get out of paying:













My father parked facing traffic, and missed the sign post showing the times allowed to park, which was 10 to 4pm.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jay

Posted by: Mad Mick V Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 08:19
Post #1465343

GSV---

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/130+Commercial+Rd,+Whitechapel,+London+E1+1NL/@51.51474,-0.0623793,3a,75y,240.24h,87.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7a6gL9ImG86X9WE3bkAE0Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x4876033349ee4e1d:0x2a4b58b7359248f8!8m2!3d51.514683!4d-0.0634041

At least 3 signs in that stretch----so missing them or not bothering to look --is a non starter.

The only possible defence might be not at that location-- 140-150 Commercial Road. YTL Fashions are no.150 so was the car directly outside?

Last I would ask for a copy of the video since TfL have a habit of timing glitches.

Otherwise bang to rights.

Mick

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 11:15
Post #1465400

Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the case on hold and send you (or your father, depending on who the registered keeper is) a DVD in the post.

Posted by: Incandescent Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 12:06
Post #1465418

QUOTE
My father parked facing traffic, and missed the sign post showing the times allowed to park, which was 10 to 4pm.

OK, he missed it when driving in to park, but did he then go and look at the sign ? If he did and then drove off, I can see this a win at adjudication, but if he just ignored the sign and trotted off to the shops then I think he's on a loser

Posted by: jayu619 Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 22:36
Post #1465995

Hi All

Thank you for your advice and input
I suspect he knew the signs and still parked.
Anyway, have sent off a letter to TfL to provide a copy of their evidence in relation to the penalty charge.
Just a question - we've moved homes so the address to which the car is registered will be at our old house. In our letter to TFL, I mentioned that they ought to send it to the new address. Are they required to do so? And how long does it take for the evidence to come through?

Thanks in advance,
Jay

Posted by: Starworshipper12 Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 22:44
Post #1465999

Do you have mail redirection set up? If not then probably a good idea to do this ASAP.

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 28 Feb 2019 - 09:51
Post #1466072

QUOTE (jayu619 @ Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 22:36) *
Hi All

Thank you for your advice and input
I suspect he knew the signs and still parked.
Anyway, have sent off a letter to TfL to provide a copy of their evidence in relation to the penalty charge.
Just a question - we've moved homes so the address to which the car is registered will be at our old house. In our letter to TFL, I mentioned that they ought to send it to the new address. Are they required to do so? And how long does it take for the evidence to come through?

Thanks in advance,
Jay

If you haven't already sent the V5C to DVLA, do so immediately. It's a criminal offence not to do so.

Posted by: hcandersen Thu, 28 Feb 2019 - 10:40
Post #1466093

As you have the PCN, it must have got to you somehow.

You suggest your address has changed, but don't say when.

Post your letter to the authority, docs and notices are the bread and butter of this procedure.

Posted by: DancingDad Thu, 28 Feb 2019 - 11:25
Post #1466115

Tell TFL that the RK address has changed, that DVLA have been notified and that any further correspondence and Notices must be sent to ???? New Address.
Include a copy of utility bill or council tax register or bank statement (obviously in his name and with correct address) as evidence of address change.

Not sure how he got the PCN unless mail redirection or collection of some sort but get the above to TFL now.
Preferably by email and keep a copy.
This is your get out of jail free card should the worst happen and notices go astray from being sent to old address.

Posted by: jayu619 Mon, 18 Mar 2019 - 23:22
Post #1472144

Hi All,

Thank you for the above replies.
PCN got to him because parents still have the property, so have been going there to collect letters etc. Safe to say, the RK details were requested to be changed at the time of posting the PCN here.

Anyway, TfL have responded with evidence. Please see below:





Is there any chance of winning this? Or is this bang to rights?

Thanks in advance all.

Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:08
Post #1472203

Call TFL and ask for the video, rather than still images.

Posted by: jayu619 Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 12:08
Post #1472237

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 11:08) *
Call TFL and ask for the video, rather than still images.


Hi - thank you.
Asking for the video rather than still images, how will that help?
Thank you,
Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 13:17
Post #1472264

It will show us what evidence the adjudicator would be looking at to make a decision.

If it shows your dad walking up to the sign, reading it, and then deciding to stay parked there, we know it's a hopeless case. I'm not going to speculate on other scenarios, but without seeing the video we don't know if it's worth making an appeal or not.

Posted by: jayu619 Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 15:42
Post #1472314

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Mar 2019 - 13:17) *
It will show us what evidence the adjudicator would be looking at to make a decision.

If it shows your dad walking up to the sign, reading it, and then deciding to stay parked there, we know it's a hopeless case. I'm not going to speculate on other scenarios, but without seeing the video we don't know if it's worth making an appeal or not.


OK - understood, that explains alot.
I will phone them now and see what TfL say.

Thanks again for clarifying.

Posted by: jayu619 Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 07:09
Post #1476892

Hi Guys -

I received the dvd disk with footage however, it does not seem to play on the ps4 nor xbox one. Our laptops at home do not have a DVD drive/
I will try the disk at work to see if that does anything.

If not, where do we stand?
Thanks,
JayU

Posted by: hcandersen Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 10:52
Post #1476931

As regards the video:

@cp It will show us what evidence the adjudicator would be looking at to make a decision.


The still must also show this same evidence:

a)to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.


IMO, if by virtue of the video the authority introduce new and material evidence which is not shown in the stills then this could be argued to be a procedural impropriety and prima facie evidence of failing to act fairly.

The stills appear to show a vehicle stationary from 17.06.05 to 17.07.09.

And if the person shown in still 2 is walking to the vehicle in order to move it......

Posted by: jayu619 Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 10:55
Post #1476932

Hi -

I was able to see the footage on a desktop PC.
Footage doe snot show my father looking at the sign or anything.
Just when the camera operator started recording (from the clip) at 17.05, the car was stationary for the entire length of the clip.

Camera starts at 17.05 and PCN time is 17.07 - is this something to fight with?
Or is he bang to rights?

Do advise.
Many thanks,

JayU

Posted by: jayu619 Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 13:58
Post #1476994

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 11:52) *
As regards the video:

@cp It will show us what evidence the adjudicator would be looking at to make a decision.


The still must also show this same evidence:

a)to make available at one of its offices specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him or by his representative, the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.


IMO, if by virtue of the video the authority introduce new and material evidence which is not shown in the stills then this could be argued to be a procedural impropriety and prima facie evidence of failing to act fairly.

The stills appear to show a vehicle stationary from 17.06.05 to 17.07.09.

And if the person shown in still 2 is walking to the vehicle in order to move it......


Hi Hcanderson,

The person in still 2 is not my father unfortunately...
Even when the clip ends, the vehicle is still stationary - so father did not go to move during the 2 minutes of video footage.

I am thinking to just pay up...unless there is another angle we can try?

Thank you,
JayU

Posted by: jayu619 Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 12:08
Post #1477822

Hi Guys -

Just following up on the above, if anyone has recommendations or if I should just pay the fine...

Thanks
Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 18:46
Post #1477906

I'm sorry to say I struggle to see how you could win here. See what others say but don't miss the discount deadline.

Posted by: jayu619 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 09:43
Post #1479270

Hi All -

Anyone else can comment ? Would appealing stating that my father came back within a few minutes of the video ending suffice?

I am inclined to pay the reduced amount if the above will not work.

Thanks
Jay

Posted by: hcandersen Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 10:11
Post #1479274

When you posted the stills you included a letter in which they said the penalty was on hold for 14 days.

30 days later you posted that you had viewed the video.

Is the penalty still on hold, if so until when?

Posted by: stamfordman Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 10:22
Post #1479279

If discount on offer this is best now - the contravention on red routes is no stopping, and 2 mins is way too long.

Posted by: jayu619 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 10:30
Post #1479281

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 11:11) *
When you posted the stills you included a letter in which they said the penalty was on hold for 14 days.

30 days later you posted that you had viewed the video.

Is the penalty still on hold, if so until when?


Hi hcanderson

I checked the status of the PCN, and the outstanding amount is showing as still £65. The last update on the status page was on the 28th March, which is when the DVD footage was sent to my father. But he was never in, and it was sent recorded delivery requiring a signature. The letter in fact, got picked up on 3rd April.

The card left from Royal Mail was 29th Friday March, so the 21 days discount period would theoretically end today. Not sure if the 21 days would be from pickup date of 3/4/19.

The correspondence letter which came with the DVD never mentioned about the discount period from which date it would begin...just said, as requested, please find enclosed a copy of the footage.

I am thinking if I leave it over the weekend, and if the amount goes up to £130, could I argue one of the grounds by stating the letter which accompanied the dvd footage, never made clear about the 21 days as to which date it would start from - 28/3 or 3/4.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 23:11
Post #1479431

When did TFL say they'd extend the discount period again? Do you have anything in writing?

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 00:44
Post #1479434

If you can pay the discount do so, there in no clear winning argument here

Posted by: jayu619 Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 21:07
Post #1492343

Hi Guys -

I am in need of some urgent help here!

As you saw from the post, my father received a PCN for parking on the red route. From your advice, I did the following, in the order which it happened:

1. wrote to TfL asking for further evidence - the address to which we asked them to send the footage to was his temporary address as his home was getting refurbished. The letter also had this temporary address written on the top right hand corner of the letter. Saw that the case was on hold. Still images were sent to the temporary address, and said the case is on hold for 14 days.
2. Phoned in to ask for footage, after advice on here to see whether my father did come back to his vehicle or not. Unfortunately he did not. CCTV footage was sent to his registered address, not temporary address.
3. When he was about to pay the - what he thought was the discounted amount of £65, the PCN went back up to £130.
4. I wrote a representation appealing on ground 1, procedural impropriety because it was not clear when the discount period would end, as we thought we had time since the case was on hold. Also to mention, I added the registered address of my father in the representation, on the top right hand corner especially as he'd moved back to his registered address.

This is where it gets a little complicated...

5. supposedly, TfL replied back. By which time he had gone back to his registered address. TfL in fact, sent their response of accepting the discounted period on this occasion, but sent the response to the temporary address. He never got to see their response in order to pay or take further action.
6. father received a charge notice through the post to his registered address.

I called TfL up in fury, based on 3 reasons - which is where I need some help, if we have a case:

Firstly, the representation we made, was apparently outside the 28 days. According to them, contravention occurred on the 2 February, and by the time we made our representation on 23 April, it was 2 months after the contravention. But I kept telling her I requested pictures and footage in between, and each time the case was being put on hold. Furthermore, the lady was referring me to the back of the first PCN received, regarding the 28 days. But I said, it is not clear whether when we request evidence, if that affects the 28 days. She said, doesn't matter whether you request footage or not, you ought to have made a representation within the 28 days. I even went on to say, what if the evidence had something that could help my case with you sending it after the 28 days ends, would that stop me appealing? Left it at that because she was not getting it.

Secondly, I said we never had the chance of seeing TfL's response to our representation because you sent it to the temporary address, despite me writing the registered address on top right hand corner. Otherwise, we would have paid the discounted rate. The lady replied because we never mentioned it in our representation letter where to send the response, they sent it to temporary address. It's strange that the picture evidence came to temporary address as requested and when I phoned for video footage, the gentleman said can only send it to the registered address, which they did.

Thirdly, (and not sure if I have this correct), I was banging on about that we should have had the chance to appeal to tribunal, but was not. Is that right? The lady again replied saying the 28 days was lost after the 2 February, so basically I should have sent in a representation by 2 march. The first picture evidence received was 11 March.

Anyway, is there a case to be won here? Sorry for the long winded message, but wanted to cover everything.

We have 14 days from 11 June to pay or the matter will be escalated to county court.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 22:25
Post #1492614

Without seeing any of the documents, I can't make head nor tail of your (frankly) rambling account. Either show us all the paperwork, or pay the charge before it goes up even more.

Posted by: jayu619 Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 12:44
Post #1492683

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:25) *
Without seeing any of the documents, I can't make head nor tail of your (frankly) rambling account. Either show us all the paperwork, or pay the charge before it goes up even more.


I will post up tonight when I receive the scanned info

Posted by: jayu619 Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 17:47
Post #1492890

Hi -

Here are all the documents, in chronological order:

1. PCN received through the post, as linked on post #1, dated 9/2/19 (address where car is registered)
2. Letter sent from us requesting for further evidence, dated 28/2/19 - asking response to be sent to temporary address:



3. The corresponding letter TfL sent on 11/3/19 - TfL wrote to temporary address as requested:




4. I phoned TfL on 19/3/19 asking for CCTV footage to see whether my father did end up going to his car as suggested on this forum.
5. TfL sent the CCTV on a disc to where his car is registered with the attached letter, 29/3/19 - father tried getting it sent to his temporary address but the agent from TfL said they could only send to the address where car is registered:



6. Father sent a representation on 23/4/19, where the address on right hand corner was his car is registered. The letter did not mention anything about sending TfL's response to registered address:



7. The next letter father received was the Charge Certificate. When received, he phoned TfL who advised that a response was sent accepting the discounted rate in May, but the letter was sent to temporary address because father did not stipulate in his representation on 23/4/19 that the letter should be sent to his address here the car is registered. CC was received on 11/6/19:




This is where we are at in terms of time line - father clearly did not receive TfL response accepting discounted amount. TfL are unwilling to still accept the discounted rate having informed that he did not receive this letter, let alone cancel it.

I am unsure why they would say the case is on hold, and then the 28 days lapses regardless of whether you ask for footage or not. From the initial PCn through post, nothing is mentioned about what happens in regards to the 28 days if you request footage etc. Here is the case updates from TfL's own website:




Would it be worth taking them to court? Or waiting for the recovery of statement to come through?

Thank you in advance for your help.
Jay

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 17:59
Post #1492894

TfL must send the notice of rejection to the address held by DVLA

Posted by: jayu619 Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 18:52
Post #1492911

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 18:59) *
TfL must send the notice of rejection to the address held by DVLA


Hi PMB
Supposedly they sent a reply to the temporary address, even though it was not a rejection to his representation; in fact they accepted the discounted amount, But of course never received by my father.

Should they have sent that reply to the registered address or temporary address given that he did not stipulate he's moved back to the registered address?

Thanks,
Jay

Posted by: jayu619 Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 21:22
Post #1493566

Hi Guys

Just bumping this one up, if anyone can help.
Thank you in advance
Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 11:47
Post #1493658

Has your father received the rejection letter?

Posted by: jayu619 Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 06:10
Post #1493888

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 12:47) *
Has your father received the rejection letter?


Hi CP
Since his last representation about the discount, he didn't receive anything. Just the charge certificate.

But according to TfL, they sent a reply stating they accepted father's representation albeit sent to temporary address. So NEVER got TfLs reply.

What do you think?
Jay

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 19:37
Post #1494091

If he didn't receive it, he didn't receive it, so I'd say there's grounds to make a witness statement to that effect. That will at least reset the penalty to £130. The process is explained here: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process#ws but in a nutshell you must wait for the Order for Recovery to come through before you can do this.

All documents should go to the same address where the charge certificate was sent, so you need to ensure documents can be received at that address and forwarded if necessary.

Posted by: jayu619 Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 19:56
Post #1517358

Hi All

We were waiting for the Order for Recovery, this was not received.
But on 30 August, JBW Judicial Services group sent an enforcement letter stating that my dad owes £278. But we never received anything else.
To make matters worse, our neighbors gave the letter to us - the post went to their house instead of my parents, so we missed JBW's deadline to pay £278 by 10th September.
In this what do we do? Parents are a little worried if agents come to take control of belongings.


Does it mean my father will have a CCJ against his record?

Please help
Thanks in advance,
Jay

Posted by: Incandescent Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 22:47
Post #1517391

There will be no CCJ, of that they can be certain, but the rest is still difficult. Unfortunately in these matters one must be proactive not just sit waiting.

The only avenue now open to them is to submit to TEC an Out-of-Time Witness Statement stating that the "Rejection of Formal Representations" was not received. I'm not sure what the forms are but they can be downloaded from the TEC website. If this is accepted the matter reverts to the original Notice to Owner stage. However the council can oppose this, stating they sent all documents to the V5C address.

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