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PCN Yellow Box Penalty - Uphill with a bad driver in front of me, Grounds for appeal? Should I request video?
prilancio
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 17:24
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UPDATE:
WOW - Big update everyone!

Just spoke to TFL and asked for video evidence. Explained what I thought happened.

The very nice chap I spoke to put me on hold, came back, and cancelled the penalty for me smile.gif He said he'll send it out in writing to confirm but all cancelled!!!

THANK YOU EVERYONE smile.gif


ORIGINAL:
All

Received one of those dreaded penalties for stopping in a yellow box.

In this case, it's a Yellow Box on Purley way at a horrible junction (anyone who knows that road will know it). It goes uphill so can have poor visibility.

Anyway, I'm following traffic, and there's clearly plenty of room beyond the box. I'm following another car, and for some reason he stops about half a car width in front of the yellow box though has plenty of room in front of him (he was driving badly and stopping weirdly before the junction too - Maybe I should have predicted something like this). I unfortunately then have to stop. Half my car is beyond the yellow box (or just under) - front tyres beyond it, rear tyers on the wrong side.

I wasn't blocking any traffic what so ever. And after me beeping the idiot in front a few times, he moved forward and I proceeded to go beyond the box.

Is this grounds for appeal? My worry is that I appeal, it gets denied, and rather than pay the £65 discounted fine I have to pay the full £130.

Would love advice on this from any experts. If everyone stopped before the other side was openly clear, it would be ridiculous as it is uphill so that would mean every car at a green light on this 30 road would have to stop, wait, and then go?

Thanks!



This post has been edited by prilancio: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 - 10:43
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post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 17:24
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peterguk
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:00
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Let's see the video.


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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:04
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Ask for the video, but do not miss deadlines for representations even if they tell you they will put the PCN on hold


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prilancio
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:23
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Thanks - I'll use the Make a Representation feature online to request the video today. It's been 4 days since the letter issue date (though did only receive it today oddly).

Also, the history looks a little bit odd online:

24/01/2017 01:32:42 PCN Issued
15/02/2017 14:04:41 On Hold
16/02/2017 15:25:03 Representation submitted Under review
16/02/2017 15:25:06 On Hold
16/02/2017 15:25:06 Representation submitted Under review
16/02/2017 15:25:06 On Hold
06/03/2017 10:28:05 Representation Accepted
07/03/2017 01:33:08 PCN Issued

This post has been edited by prilancio: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:25
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:25
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QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:23) *
Thanks - I'll use the Make a Representation feature online to request the video today. It's been 4 days since the letter issue date (though did only receive it today oddly).


No use that to make a representation that the contravention did not occur ask for video via e mail or phone


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prilancio
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:26
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:25) *
QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:23) *
Thanks - I'll use the Make a Representation feature online to request the video today. It's been 4 days since the letter issue date (though did only receive it today oddly).


No use that to make a representation that the contravention did not occur ask for video via e mail or phone


Ah thanks - I'll call them first thing on Monday (can't find an email address to use).
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DancingDad
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:34
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So why has the PCN taken this time to be served to you ?

Lease or Hire car ??
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prilancio
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:41
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:34) *
So why has the PCN taken this time to be served to you ?

Lease or Hire car ??


It's a lease car - Guess that might explain the delay for being on hold?
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DancingDad
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:49
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QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:34) *
So why has the PCN taken this time to be served to you ?

Lease or Hire car ??


It's a lease car - Guess that might explain the delay for being on hold?


Yup
Original PCN went to lease company
They challenged on hire ground, nominating you as driver
Challenge accepted
New PCN served to you
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prilancio
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:53
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:34) *
So why has the PCN taken this time to be served to you ?

Lease or Hire car ??


It's a lease car - Guess that might explain the delay for being on hold?


Yup
Original PCN went to lease company
They challenged on hire ground, nominating you as driver
Challenge accepted
New PCN served to you


Makes sense. Thanks for that.

So next step is to call first thing Monday and ask for video. Hopefully that comes within the 5 working days as if not, I won't get it within the 14 day appeal period due to the 4 day delay of receiving the letter.

I'm a bit angry at all of this really. I'm a good driver and this is a really crap junction that's always got people cutting in and doing weird things.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 19:18
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Years and years ago when Ernest Marples was Transport Minister, he was asked on "steam television" how a driver should drive in order to not have incidents and accidents etc. He said - "always assume the other driver is a complete fool". Some things never change !

In your case to fight this you need to see the video as that is all the adjudicator will look at "on the day". Yes, adjudicator, because the council will never give way, so you'd have to forego the discount and take them to London Tribunals, (no additional cost BTW). I suspect, though, that like rather too many motorists, you just followed the car into the box, like we all do from time to time. This is fatal because you had to stop "due to the presence of stationary vehicles" a classic contravention. OK, the babbling old fool in the car maybe stopped unnecessarily, but this is irrelevant. You fit the contravention for a YBJ so a PCN is issued.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 19:24
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stamfordman
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 19:20
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QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 18:53) *
So next step is to call first thing Monday and ask for video. Hopefully that comes within the 5 working days as if not, I won't get it within the 14 day appeal period due to the 4 day delay of receiving the letter.

I'm a bit angry at all of this really. I'm a good driver and this is a really crap junction that's always got people cutting in and doing weird things.



This is TFL - unless they have got their act together you won't get a DVD with the video for some time but they should put it on hold. I've just got a DVD 8 months - yes 8 months - after a yellow box event...

I've not viewed the video but from you say there could be grounds here as you had an expectation that you and the car in front would have cleared the box. I've seen draft policy from at least one London council that they should exercise discretion if say there was space for three cars but two cars hogged the space, in the interests of keeping the traffic flowing.
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prilancio
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 19:30
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Wow - 8 months??! That's nuts ha! Sounds unfortunate that you will always lose the 50% discount if you take it to a tribunal - not a fantastically fair system and I imagine if there's a less than 50% chance of winning, it would always benefit to just pay it for that reason...

I'll ask for the video anyway as it sounds like I can still get the 50% discount in 8 months once the video comes as it may be super obvious it was clear in front of the other guy. Interesting about the draft policy you've seen from a London council - Will have to try and look into that too.

It really is a daft law. If they expect every car to stop before the hatched area until it's clear, on this 30mph dual carriageway, it would cause huge tailbax as the lights change pretty quickly too! And it's already a junction known for terrible traffic.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 20:08
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From H&F (but from 2007):

Steady slow moving traffic over a box junction is probably the most difficult scenario to deal with especially if we are dealing with multiple lanes. Somebody suddenly slowing down or stopping short for no good reason may cause a judgement problem, when drivers in the vehicles behind, looking in advance of the vehicle in front of them thought they had judged it correctly and would make it off the box. An example maybe when there are 3 empty car spaces in one lane on the exit side of the box junction and 3 cars start to travel over the box towards them in one line. The first 2 cars may use up all 3 spaces due to leaving large gaps between them. This would be unfair to the third car driver who thought they would all fit in. The critical factor here is that the drivers have a reasonable line of sight to make their judgements. We should apply discretion. We have to weigh up the good momentum of traffic travelling freely over box junctions while not trying to make people treat it like a stop line or give way line unnecessarily. In time deterrence should make more drivers aware of how to treat their approach to a box junction.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j...rCngy11Xh9wn_rA

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peterguk
post Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 20:09
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QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 19:30) *
It really is a daft law.


Unfortunately, your opinion is of no interest. Do not let your opinion of the legislation determine whether the contravention occured or not - it could be an expensive mistake.


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astralite
post Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 11:25
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When you ask for the video record the conversation or make and keep a note of it and the name of the person to whom you speak. Make sure you ask them to agree to put the PCN on hold until you have received the video and have had a chance to review it, The video is the only evidence of this type of alleged contravention. When you get the video provide us with a link so we can take a look.
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John U.K.
post Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 12:41
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QUOTE (astralite @ Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 11:25) *
When you ask for the video record the conversation or make and keep a note of it and the name of the person to whom you speak. Make sure you ask them to agree to put the PCN on hold until you have received the video and have had a chance to review it, The video is the only evidence of this type of alleged contravention. When you get the video provide us with a link so we can take a look.


+1

And if they agree to place it on hold, ask them to confirm in writing or e-mail.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 13:09
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Note that you can see the status of the PCN at:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn

It will show these status as 'on hold' if so - but the recording of their commitment is also useful.
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666
post Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 13:24
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QUOTE (prilancio @ Sat, 11 Mar 2017 - 17:24) *
In this case, it's a Yellow Box on Purley way at a horrible junction (anyone who knows that road will know it). It goes uphill so can have poor visibility.

Anyway, I'm following traffic, and there's clearly plenty of room beyond the box.


Shurely shome contadiction? Which one is it?
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Neil B
post Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 14:37
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I'm intrigued to know how uphill or downhill has any effect on visibility of a YB ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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