PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

When is a caution considered to be spent
Korting
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 23:02
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,570
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



Not for myself, I’ve never received a caution.

I’m trying to help someone. Who cannot post here. They were given a caution in 2012 for a minor domestic incident.

Some five years later, possibly a few days before 5 years, the person was dismissed from her job because of the caution even though she had declared it to her line manager, gave a written statement and had an interview.

Would a caution show up on a DBS at the time some 4.5 - 5 years after the caution?

I’d be interested in your opinions.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 18)
Advertisement
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 23:02
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
southpaw82
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 23:37
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



Does it matter, considering she disclosed its existence?


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 23:52
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



If the employer was aware of the caution and the surrounding circumstances, and was happy to take the person on, and then simply changed its mind on a whim and not because further facts came to light, that sounds like a possible unfair dismissal case. You might want to talk to an employment lawyer.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 07:00
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



I see two issues here, firstly the one raised by CP, secondly whether the dismissal was proportionate based on the what the caution was for versus the impact on their suitability to do the job.

In addition a number of times the Police have fallen foul of promising a caution won’t have any future impact and resolves the current issue without the need for court, only to then reveal it later in a DBS check, in many cases people chose not accept the caution despite feeling they could defend the allegation because of that promise.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 07:00


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Slapdash
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 10:10
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,864
Joined: 2 Aug 2016
Member No.: 86,040



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 08:00) *
In addition a number of times the Police have fallen foul of promising a caution won’t have any future impact and resolves the current issue without the need for court, only to then reveal it later in a DBS check


It depends on the type of check done what is produced.

I have a crown court acquittal from 1983. This is disclosed which seems a bit harsh.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 12:25
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



How long have they been in the job?


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 12:39
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



While unfair dismissal comes to mind instantly, why a DBS check after 5 years?
Is it a new condition, change of job requirements, what ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 12:40
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (Slapdash @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 11:10) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 08:00) *
In addition a number of times the Police have fallen foul of promising a caution won’t have any future impact and resolves the current issue without the need for court, only to then reveal it later in a DBS check


It depends on the type of check done what is produced.


Erm no, its the promise made by the Police that is the issue in those cases, there have been a few successful court cases against the Police because of it.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Slapdash
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 14:11
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,864
Joined: 2 Aug 2016
Member No.: 86,040



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 13:40) *
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 11:10) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 08:00) *
In addition a number of times the Police have fallen foul of promising a caution won’t have any future impact and resolves the current issue without the need for court, only to then reveal it later in a DBS check


It depends on the type of check done what is produced.


Erm no, its the promise made by the Police that is the issue in those cases, there have been a few successful court cases against the Police because of it.


There was, of course, the person who went all the way to the supreme court when a rape acquittal was disclosed in an ECRC. That went against him.

But yes, I do understand your point about folk accepting cautions on the basis of no foward impact.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roythebus
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 18:49
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,963
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



From what I remember reading on here a few years ago the advice was never accept a caution, it stays on your record for ever.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 19:02
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 12:39) *
While unfair dismissal comes to mind instantly, why a DBS check after 5 years?
Is it a new condition, change of job requirements, what ?



I read it as caution was 5 years ago, not necessarily that been in the job 5 years


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 08:25
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 12:39) *
While unfair dismissal comes to mind instantly, why a DBS check after 5 years?
Is it a new condition, change of job requirements, what ?



I read it as caution was 5 years ago, not necessarily that been in the job 5 years


Would make a big difference.
For instance, unfair dismissal generally can only be pursued if been employed for 2 years.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Korting
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 08:46
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,570
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



It looks like she was self employed and working for a local authority looking after vulnerable people, she was told she was very good at her job.

Then there was a change of managers and the new manager dismissed her.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 10:59
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Korting @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 08:46) *
It looks like she was self employed and working for a local authority looking after vulnerable people, she was told she was very good at her job.

Then there was a change of managers and the new manager dismissed her.

Well that opens a whole can of works, whether she was really self employed may be debatable.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:27
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Certainly does.... contract T&Cs come to mind but often protection is very limited.
Basics as I understand but is very basic so do not take it as gospel.

Self employed, no protection against unfair dismissal.
Breach of contract may be possible but T&Cs would need to be checked.
Working with vulnerable people, DBS check would be needed but caution may not be a bar to employment.
Comes down to employer in many cases but many err on side of caution (no pun intended) to avoid potential future questions relating to "why did you employ this person and how much compensation will you pay for your negligence in doing so ?"
Simple caution spent when issued but will show on DBS for 6 years minimum.
Some types show forever, sex offenders for instance and some are a bar to even applying for certain jobs let alone being employed in them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:43
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:27) *
Certainly does.... contract T&Cs come to mind but often protection is very limited.
Basics as I understand but is very basic so do not take it as gospel.

Self employed, no protection against unfair dismissal.
Breach of contract may be possible but T&Cs would need to be checked.
Working with vulnerable people, DBS check would be needed but caution may not be a bar to employment.
Comes down to employer in many cases but many err on side of caution (no pun intended) to avoid potential future questions relating to "why did you employ this person and how much compensation will you pay for your negligence in doing so ?"
Simple caution spent when issued but will show on DBS for 6 years minimum.
Some types show forever, sex offenders for instance and some are a bar to even applying for certain jobs let alone being employed in them.


QUOTE
Self employed, no protection against unfair dismissal.



Hasn't this changed with recent rulings Uber springs to mind


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 12:02
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:43) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:27) *
Certainly does.... contract T&Cs come to mind but often protection is very limited.
Basics as I understand but is very basic so do not take it as gospel.

Self employed, no protection against unfair dismissal.
Breach of contract may be possible but T&Cs would need to be checked.
Working with vulnerable people, DBS check would be needed but caution may not be a bar to employment.
Comes down to employer in many cases but many err on side of caution (no pun intended) to avoid potential future questions relating to "why did you employ this person and how much compensation will you pay for your negligence in doing so ?"
Simple caution spent when issued but will show on DBS for 6 years minimum.
Some types show forever, sex offenders for instance and some are a bar to even applying for certain jobs let alone being employed in them.


QUOTE
Self employed, no protection against unfair dismissal.



Hasn't this changed with recent rulings Uber springs to mind

Only if they’re not really self-employed - which has been the case for a long time.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jdh
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 12:22
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,705
Joined: 20 May 2004
From: Lincolnshire
Member No.: 1,224



QUOTE (roythebus @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 18:49) *
From what I remember reading on here a few years ago the advice was never accept a caution, it stays on your record for ever.

Reminds me of this where one of our local PCC candidates had to drop out over something that happened a long time ago. https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-cr...ection-drop-out
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 13:19
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:43) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 11:27) *
Self employed, no protection against unfair dismissal.



Hasn't this changed with recent rulings Uber springs to mind


That's where CP's comment comes in, whether or not truly self employed may be arguable.
And may well be relevant following the Uber ruling.
ACAS gives some guidance, other sites are available
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5890
But the basic of self employed cannot claim unfair dismissal is correct.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 20:17
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here