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Advice? dangerous use of a motor vehicle
Gray
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 19:53
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Hi folks, been looking for a site to get some advice and this seems to be the best one smile.gif

I was stopped in my escort van at Shap on the M6 last thursday night at 12.15 am. The officer told me he had stopped the van for a routine check as "these sort of vans are used for allsorts" fair enough I thought and let him carry on. He knew from my name the van wasnt registered to me but to one my friends although it is insured by me and was fully legal. He then asked me to rotate the steering and checked my tyres which were fine.
This is when it gets complicated.....
He asked what was in the van, I explained my other half is undergoing chemotherapy at the moment and she was asleep in the back (airbed and quilts) and that she was very unwell, no excuse i know but perfectly true, I opened the rear doors, he shone his torch in to check on her and seemed satisfied I was telling the truth then asked me to accompany me to his car. After I got the lecture about the obvious dangers (which in hindsight I completely accept) he gave me a ticket for dangerous use and a 7 day producer. Then he said he wanted to search the van as he had smelt cannabis. My good humour was weaning by now as I dont smoke it and no-one has ever smoked it in that van, i protested and he seemed to think he was sure so I told him he would find morphine and several cancer drugs in the van, all prescribed but if he was going to get my other half (given her condition) out of the van and make her stand in the rain on the hardshoulder while he searched the van then he had better be sure he found something as I would make a complaint. This seemed to satisfy him and he decided not to bother so he then escorted me to a slip road and told me to sort it out before continuing.
Today I went into the police station with my documents, I couldnt find my licence so took my mot and insurance documents in. the girl behind the desk explained I would get a summons etc but to order a new licence from the dvla and when it came they would sort it out. She then went into the backroom to sort the paperwork out and came back out to tell me the registration number on my documents didnt match my ticket, we went outside and she verified my reg and that the motorway police had recorded the registration down wrong. she made note of this and that was that.
I have since been told this may be unenforcable for this reason and I was hoping one of the knowledgable here could shed some light on it?

Thanks for reading
Gray
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post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 19:53
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roadrunner 163
post Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 17:08
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QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 17:33) *
your making a number of claims there which arnt supported by law

show me, where its says being reclined to the point of being prone is an offense

show me where the requirements for wheel chairs to be fixed ion a particular way arises from

show me where there is a general over ridding require for seatbelts 'restraints to be used for all passengers

your doing what the copper has done and just conclude that because its unconventional it must be illegal, with out being able to tell us why it is or more so than similare arrangments

there is no reason why i could build a motorised bed, if id i mind to and be legal


tongue.gif here we go again.

I did not say being relined was an offence, i suggested to avoid the offence sit in the seat and recline it. seat belt on job done..

Reg 100 of con and use 1986 probably covers it sufficiently:
QUOTE
Maintenance and use of vehicle so as not to be a danger, etc

100.—(1) A motor vehicle, every trailer drawn thereby and all parts and accessories of such vehicle and trailer shall at all times be in such condition, and the number of passengers carried by such vehicle or trailer, the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on such vehicle or trailer, and the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of such vehicle or trailer shall at all times be such, that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

Provided that the provisions of this regulation with regard to the number of passengers carried shall not apply to a vehicle to which the Public Service Vehicles (Carrying Capacity) Regulations 1984 apply.

(2) The load carried by a motor vehicle or trailer shall at all times be so secured, if necessary by physical restraint other than its own weight, and be in such a position, that neither danger nor nuisance is likely to be caused to any person or property by reason of the load or any part thereof falling or being blown from the vehicle or by reason of any other movement of the load or any part thereof in relation to the vehicle.

(3) No motor vehicle or trailer shall be used for any purpose for which it is so unsuitable as to cause or be likely to cause danger or nuisance to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.


I made no definite statements just common sense and experience, the presence of danger is question of fact and the test of the relevance of the potential danger caused is objective, DPP v POTTS (2000) RTR 1 and the objective test is highligted in Gary v DPP (1999) RTR 339.

Incidentally the police officer issued the FPN because he believes the offence to be committed and suspects the OP to be guilty of the offence, its for the courts decide if the OP was guilty if the OP wishes it to be put to the test.

As for making a road legal bed, by a Rover instead. laugh.gif


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jobo
post Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 17:56
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classing people as a load, is problematic in fact it would help the op no end, as a person as a load could quite easily be thrown in the back of a van or in the boot of a car, on the roof rack for that matter subject to strapping, but it would seem that unsecured load is not going to be the charge ? and passengers are clearly delineate in the C&U regs from loads

As ive tried to explain above, you can do anything you want, car beds house beds, canal boats as cars, provided you meet the C&U regulations, but you make a good point, can a vehicle which meets its obligations under C&U still be considered dangerous, or more to the point, could the use of that vehicle with in its design criteria be considered dangerous use, allowing your not breaking any other rta requirements

youve made a point about the scale of adaptation, id class that as an intended change to a vehicle to allow another or extend the use, it could be a very minimal, putting a seatbelt extension on to allow a fat person to belt up would be such, as i would suggest would be fitting a baby seat, the fact it is easily removable isnt really the point

so, is carrying a passenger in a manner for which the car has been adapted, IF both the car and the adaptation meet the C&U regs, prima facia dangerous ? id say not, is it possible to for a court to make a finding that a car meet the C&U is in a dangerous condition/use, im struggling to see how ?

101 wouldnt count as its not the part that causing the danger, the accusation is its a lack of parts, ie a seat ET AL, unless you can support a claim that a mattress is going to injure his OH

im confident that i could build a similar arrangement to the OPs and meet all legal requirements (and get a SVA), thats not to say he has, just that it might have done



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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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The Rookie
post Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 20:11
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QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 18:56) *
id say not, is it possible to for a court to make a finding that a car meet the C&U is in a dangerous condition/use, im struggling to see how ?

In fact it is not, I was found a case (didn't bookmark it - but with some effort you'd find it) where a tractor driver was convicted of driving a dangerous vehicle after a motorcyclist impalled himself on bale lifting tines on the front, this was overturned at appeal as the vehicle was permitted by C&U to be driven in such a condition (exposed tines to the front) and therefore it could not be classed as dangerous.

Simon


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mickR
post Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 21:37
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 21:11) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 18:56) *
id say not, is it possible to for a court to make a finding that a car meet the C&U is in a dangerous condition/use, im struggling to see how ?

In fact it is not, I was found a case (didn't bookmark it - but with some effort you'd find it) where a tractor driver was convicted of driving a dangerous vehicle after a motorcyclist impalled himself on bale lifting tines on the front, this was overturned at appeal as the vehicle was permitted by C&U to be driven in such a condition (exposed tines to the front) and therefore it could not be classed as dangerous.

Simon


good find simon, a clear case of when commom sense goes out of the window.
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mickR
post Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 21:56
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QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 17:33) *
there is no reason why i couldnt build a motorised bed, if id i mind to and be legal


to late mate http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry/features...rised_bed.shtml
and http://www.robertprice.co.uk/robblog/archi...rised_Bed.shtml

also roadrunners comment
QUOTE
also why not get in the front seat and crank the back down nice and flat.

not that you could do that in a van anyway as the load floor would not allow that much recining, but....
would that not be exactly the same as being in the back? the seatbelt (if worn) would be rendered completly usless, therefore the occupant would be in danger. whats the difference?

This post has been edited by mickR: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 - 22:19
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Gray
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 10:15
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things have moved on a little....
I got a fine in my absence at court of £450
the dvla have revoked my license and marsdons are after me! (bailiffs)

I need to get moving on this so...
I need to send a letter to court to ask either time to pay or appeal the fine..
I will send my licence off to dvla for the 3 points.
marstons can go away....

I need help with a letter for court......urgently..

thanks in advance

gray
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jobo
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 12:03
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you may need to give a bit more info

you didnt enter a plea,

you did enter a plea

you didnt pay the4 fine

why


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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Gan
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 12:20
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If you send your licence away it's game over

OPs only find themselves in this situation if they either didn't receive the summons or ignored it. If you didn't know about it you only have 21 days to go to the local court and make a Statutory Declaration that you knew nothing about the proceedings and get the conviction set aside.

What's the story ?
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Gray
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 13:04
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story.....
got a ticket...£60 and 3 points

couldn't produce because licence was destroyed in a fire and was waiting for it back.

went to police station with other docs and explained situation

they kept the ticket.

didn't hear anything and forgot about it.
next thing was fine from court of £450..and 3 points....WTF?

I now have my licence back...ready to send for points...

dvla revocked it...that has been sorted out and am ready to send it..


I'm not happy that the fine was that much over the £60 ticket.
I am happy to pay the £60 if I could appeal to the court..

the police have the ticket so I couldn't enter a plea and I didn't want to go to lakes to the court there.

now Marston bailiff wants £75 + the fine...

I need help with a letter asking court to re open my case.

I am reg disabled, I have little or no spare cash so paying the fine in one go is a no no.

help......lol
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Aretnap
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 13:20
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There is a summons missing from that account. It sounds like a summons was issued and never reached you for some reason - have you changed address recently? As you didn't turn up at the hearing you were convicted in your absence.

When did you first become aware that you had been convicted in your absence? Did you receive anything from the court before the bailiffs letter? If it was less than 21 days ago you should contact your local magistrates' court asap and make a statutory declaration to have the conviction set aside.

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jobo
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 13:24
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NO you need to make a statutory decleration, not have it re opened, you have 21 days from finding out about it to make an application to the court, any court

this will get you back to summons stage, your now struggling to only pay 60 and get 3 points, but you can ask the court to only apply this when you are there

contact the court and tell them what you intend to do and get a date to attend to make the stat de asap

repeat tell them its a STAT DEC YOU WANT^


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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Gray
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 15:30
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so....first I knew was bailiff letter....
go make a stat dec...

I did get one from court about fine...

should I just say first I knew was bailiff?

court informing me of fine was a month ago or a little over that...
21 days thing is worrying now..


thanks for that..

court letter was a month ago ....so past the 21 day thingy...

This post has been edited by Gray: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 15:28
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jobo
post Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 15:34
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when was the first you new about it

youl need to swear on oath that this is so, you dont have to prove it to anyone, though being caught lying would be a bad idea in fact lying would be a bad idea, they can give a stat dec out of time if you talk them into it

failing that go for having it reoppened instead

This post has been edited by jobo: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 - 15:36


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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Gray
post Fri, 30 Sep 2011 - 11:48
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may go for a re-opening then...although it is on record that my memory is shot to sh1t..
what would I need to put in a letter?
are there any templates?


thanks again for your help.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 1 Oct 2011 - 06:44
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Instead of typing bullet points try ENGLISH so we can understand what you are on about!

You either go to court and make a statutory decleration (preferable) that you did not receive the summons, the case will be cancelled and the CPS may or may not issue a new summons. When did you get the notification of the fine you then ignored? More than 21 days ago seems likely as the Bailiffs are now after you in which case a stat dec is now lost to you.

Or write a letter to the court (legal advisor) stating you did not recieve the summons and ask for the case to be reopened in the interests of justice so you can present your case. (mitigation, not guilty, or request for FPN level of penalty, whatever at that point - you don't have to state your plan now) and see what happens, make sure they have the correct address!

The former is considered a better option as a new summons is not always issued, the latter guarentees a new hearing.

I fear your Ostrich approach since getting the notification of the result (fine) has left you out of choices.

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Gray
post Mon, 3 Oct 2011 - 10:51
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thanks for that.
I am sorry if the way I write offended you.
I have an idea what I have to do, that's why I asked if there were any template letters that could be edited to suit.
any help with this would be great.
\if you could even point me in the direction of other threads that could help with a letter to court.
I have searched but it still leaves me a little confused as how to put it in a letter.
should I explain how, when at the police station, as I had no licence they held onto the ticket, thus stopping me paying it?
they told me the court would be in touch.....the next thing was a fine, I didn't get a chance to enter a plea.
all I wanted to do was pay the £60.

thanks again in advance.
I doubt I have much time left before the bailiffs get a hold of me so the sooner the better..
Gray
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