31J Entering and stopping in a box junction |
31J Entering and stopping in a box junction |
Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:52
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Hi,
My wife has received a PCN for "entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited (camera enforcement)". From what I can see elsewhere the regulation is:- "... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles." She obviously did pause for for whatever reason, but the exit route was clear and she didn't "have" to. There were no stationary vehicles present in the left hand lane when she entered the box junction. Does that mean an enforceable contravention occurred? I would be grateful for comments. Thanks. Video link:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/36445619@N03/42791310461 |
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 09:52
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:28
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Box junctions
11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Make reps to the council to the effect that the second part of the contravention 9as highlighted) is not made out so the PCN is invalid and must be cancelled -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:33
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Which car? Post the PCN too.
The sports car driver seems to have dozed off at the wheel. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:54 |
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:12
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Haha. May have dozed off! Or maybe particularly cautious in letting the cyclist pass through.
Anyway, yes it's the sports car. Thanks
Attached File(s)
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:36
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Councils have a habit of being particularly obstinate as regards reps against PCN's so its likely this would need to go before an adjudicator to decide. The movement towards the space just before the end of the video shows here intended path and that it was clear (no doubt why the video ended then)
Don't use the bike it passed quite a while after the stop. and it is a risk that you p off the adjudicator See this case in support of your ground 2160252038 Adjudicator Gerald Styles Appeal decision Appeal allowed Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice. Reasons The appellant attended the hearing arranged for 11 July. The Council did not send a representative. The appellant brought with him a freehand sketch in plan to explain and support his argument that the driver could have cleared the box without stopping for the 12 or so seconds recorded. I have retained this and accepted the measurements as shown. The appellant's daughter Rebecca is shown driving on the clip. I understood she had passed her test two years ago. I have accepted that she could have cleared the box without stopping within it. In the event the rear wheels straddled the far perimeter. She may through inexperience have misjudged the length of her father's car but I do not incline to allow an appeal of this type on that account. An obvious feature of the evidence was that when she stopped, that she did so for the purpose of adjusting controls on her music. I was inclined to be very critical of her taking her eyes off the road as she did and when she chose to do that. I did however conclude there was insufficient evidence to support this particular penalty charge as I could not attribute the reason for stopping as being essentially the presence of stationary vehicles, as opposed to preoccupation with what was playing music. I have recorded the appeal as allowed. There is another one where the adjudicator makes reference to stopping for a picnic, as long as its not due to stationary vehicles but not got that to hand -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:52
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Are you suggesting that I make reference to this case in my representation letter?
If so, is there somewhere I can find further information on the detail? |
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:53
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You can go to https://londontribunals.org.uk/ and search under "statutory registers" and then "Environment and Traffic Adjudicators" using case number 2160252038, but to be honest there is't any further detail that is relevant.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:56
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Thanks. And should I refer to the case in my letter?
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Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:19
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thanks. And should I refer to the case in my letter? Yes, I can't think of any reason not to. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 17:54
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
I appealed this PCN as the line of travel was towards the left hand lane and i) there was a clear exit route at the time of entry, and ii) stopping was not due to stationary vehicles.
Council have rejected as they contend that after stopping, the driver (my wife) was waiting for the right hand exit to be clear of vehicles. She says that is absolutely not the case. Traffic was extremely slow on this particular morning and she paused on the junction to get sight of the road and try to see if there was any incident ahead. Her car is particularly low and this position gave her the best view. Regardless of the reason for stopping, I’ve reviewed the video several times and I cannot see anything to support the assertion that she is waiting for the right exit lane to be clear. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. PCN_Rejection_red_optimize.pdf ( 773.61K ) Number of downloads: 169 |
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Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:01
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Plenty to pick on in that rejection but lets see your representations first
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:16
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Hi PMB,
This what I sent:- Dear Sir/Madam, Alleged traffic contravention on 4th June 2018 at 09:19 31(J) Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. I am writing to appeal this PCN as I do not agree that an offence occurred. Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front. The video evidence clearly shows that the line of travel is towards the left hand exit lane. There was a clear exit throughout and stopping was not due to stationary vehicles. Therefore, the vehicle’s passage through the box junction does not contravene the regulations. In similar cases that have proceeded to appeal (eg Case 2160252038) it has been determined that stopping is not a contravention in itself. As no offence has occurred, please cancel the PCN accordingly. Yours faithfully, |
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Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:36
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Two wheels good, four wheels bad - you didn't mention the cyclist.
If it were me I'd go for it regardless as exit was clear and in fact wife did then move into the space ahead. No contravention, comrade Stalin. |
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Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:55
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
After another case, I'm glad you did not mention the cyclist, but loads to go on. I would appeal
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 11:18
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Many thanks,
Inclined to appeal to adjudicator with this. Didn't mention any reason for stopping in my representation letter because it seems that unless stopping is due to stationary vehicles, the actual reason is irrelevant. PMB, when you say ‘loads to go on’, is there anything particular you think I should add? The council asserts that she wanted to move over to the right hand lane which is incorrect. My understanding (from reading cases referred to on this forum) is that the regulations require the assessment to be based on what the driver actually did, not what they might have done. If so, this would seem to be an invalid argument anyway. Any thoughts? |
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Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 16:40
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Yes but I am a bit busy bump next Wednesday if you have heard nothing and I will run through everything
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 17:32
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Please let me know your thoughts when you have time.
Thanks |
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Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:32
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
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Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:28
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Yes but I am a bit busy bump next Wednesday if you have heard nothing and I will run through everything I need to send appeal in the next few days so any thoughts would be really helpful. I would look at the date I asked you to bump me. You left it late. I can do something perhaps tonight but more likely tomorrow. It might be a good idea to register your appeal. Two grounds the contravention did not occur and the penalty exceeded the amount etc. In the box for submissions just write full submission to follow. select a personal appearance, you can always change later -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 17:49
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Member No.: 34,065 |
Hi PMB,
Apologies for late 'bump'. Rejection letter is dated 19th July so if I appeal online I guess I can wait until the last minute, which would be this time next week. Not sure what you mean by 'penalty exceeded the amount etc' so happy to wait for your comments. Really appreciate the help. |
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