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Bus Lane TICKET
Poukong
post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 11:06
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Hi All,

My mum, an elderly blue badge holder, was caught on CCTV driving in a bus lane and got a fine by Bromley Council.

The details can be accessed here:

LX21JUH (Motability Car Reg)
BY95479414 (PCN Ref)
The PCN letter doesn't add anything more to the above, other than confirming it is contravention code 34J.

I want to contest it as the road splits into two and if you don't turn left, you're basically on a one-way bus lane. She tried to come off as soon as possible once she realised but there was no signage to warn her beforehand of the road split. She is unfamiliar with the area so didn't know in advance. What are her chances?

Many thanks

P

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post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 11:06
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stamfordman
post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 11:28
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11:44
Make BMW
Colour White
Was seen in HIGH STREET (NORTH) (Bus lane), BROMLEY
Contravention Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement)

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Poukong
post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 14:16
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Thanks - any advice gratefully received …
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stamfordman
post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 15:28
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We have a challenge for all London bus lanes currently - someone else will fill you in so don't pay this.

However Bromley could well cancel otherwise - see this case:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=137885

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 15:29
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Schofeldt
post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 21:12
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gowOLRn...telVPzoWkg/edit

From member cp8759. Use it but post here first for further advice i.e. your representations.

https://walthamforestecho.co.uk/waltham-for...own-law#article

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 21:31


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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cp8759
post Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 23:07
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QUOTE (Poukong @ Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 12:06) *
I want to contest it as the road splits into two and if you don't turn left, you're basically on a one-way bus lane. She tried to come off as soon as possible once she realised but there was no signage to warn her beforehand of the road split. She is unfamiliar with the area so didn't know in advance. What are her chances?

I'm not sure that's a good approach, this is the first warning of the bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4072487,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Then this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4071774,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

This is where you decide to turn into the car park, or left, or into the bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4071216,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Junction where you say "if you don't turn left": https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4072319,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Advisory sign warning traffic at a junction that if you turn right there's a bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4073272,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

In short, I think on the merits of the contravention you'd struggle. However the camera authorisation argument has not failed us yet, so send this template https://bit.ly/3CWO1L2 and let's see what they come back with.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Schofeldt
post Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 07:52
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Case Details
Case reference 2210250967
Appellant Karine Reinton
Authority London Borough of Bromley
VRM K5EBT

PCN Details
PCN BY94839321
Contravention date 26 Aug 2020
Contravention time 18:35:00
Contravention location Mitchell Way
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Being in a bus lane

Referral date

Decision Date 06 Jul 2021
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons This appeal was listed for hearing before me today the appellant's attendance at the hearing, through her representative Mr Murray-Smith and that of the council, through its representative Ms Jacobs, being achieved via telephone. The contravention alleged in these proceedings was that this vehicle was in a bus lane. I was not satisfied for the reason(s) given by Mr Murray-Smith at paragraph 1 of his Grounds of Appeal uploaded to the case on 20 06 21 Ms Jacobs making no submissions in response that the council had established that the camera used to gather evidence of this incident was a 'prescribed device' (Section 4(1) The London Local Authorities Act 1996). The video evidence provided by it was thus not admissible. I accordingly found that the contravention had not been proved and I allowed the appeal.
Authority Response


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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Poukong
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 09:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Aug 2022 - 00:07) *
QUOTE (Poukong @ Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 12:06) *
I want to contest it as the road splits into two and if you don't turn left, you're basically on a one-way bus lane. She tried to come off as soon as possible once she realised but there was no signage to warn her beforehand of the road split. She is unfamiliar with the area so didn't know in advance. What are her chances?

I'm not sure that's a good approach, this is the first warning of the bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4072487,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Then this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4071774,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

This is where you decide to turn into the car park, or left, or into the bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4071216,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Junction where you say "if you don't turn left": https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4072319,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Advisory sign warning traffic at a junction that if you turn right there's a bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4073272,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

In short, I think on the merits of the contravention you'd struggle. However the camera authorisation argument has not failed us yet, so send this template https://bit.ly/3CWO1L2 and let's see what they come back with.


Thanks very much CP8957 - that is very helpful advice for which I am very grateful. I will send the template letter querying whether the camera is approved and see what they say. Do you think this should be done by post or can I send the template via their online appeals portal (I am already a few days past the deadline)... Thanks again

Thank you all for the advice given to me - it is very gratefully received. I will challenge the PCN by using the template as advised.

I was going to do this via their online portal for challenging PCNs but please let me know if this is the wrong approach (and I should be following another process).

Many thanks again.

P
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cp8759
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 09:49
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Send the appeal via their online portal, just put the representation in a PDF and add it a an attachment.

As a general rule with London authorities everything you post just goes to a scanning centre and is then shredded, so sending things in the mail is entirely pointless and just adds in the risk that it might be lost in the post, or in the scanning centre.


--------------------
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Poukong
post Thu, 15 Sep 2022 - 10:28
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Hi All,

I've just heard back from the local authority after I sent them the template letter about the bus lane ticket (on behalf of my mum).

Here is a picture of their reply. Would appreciate any advice or thoughts.

Many thanks

P

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Aug 2022 - 00:07) *
QUOTE (Poukong @ Wed, 3 Aug 2022 - 12:06) *
I want to contest it as the road splits into two and if you don't turn left, you're basically on a one-way bus lane. She tried to come off as soon as possible once she realised but there was no signage to warn her beforehand of the road split. She is unfamiliar with the area so didn't know in advance. What are her chances?

I'm not sure that's a good approach, this is the first warning of the bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4072487,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Then this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4071774,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

This is where you decide to turn into the car park, or left, or into the bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4071216,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Junction where you say "if you don't turn left": https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4072319,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

Advisory sign warning traffic at a junction that if you turn right there's a bus lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4073272,0...33;8i8192?hl=en

In short, I think on the merits of the contravention you'd struggle. However the camera authorisation argument has not failed us yet, so send this template https://bit.ly/3CWO1L2 and let's see what they come back with.



Hi cp8759,

I just received a reply from Bromley LEA on the camera authorisation template letter I sent (on behalf of my mum).

I've attached their response. Any guidance would be gratefully received..

Many thanks

P
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astralite
post Thu, 15 Sep 2022 - 11:11
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I can see two copies of the first page of a letter dated 26 August.
There seems to have been a delay – I assume that was because the letter was addressed to and sent to your mum as the registered keeper of the vehicle.
If she wishes, your mum could authorise you to write on her behalf so that correspondence comes directly to you.
Can you post the rest of the letter please.
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Schofeldt
post Thu, 15 Sep 2022 - 11:32
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Don't pay and wait for the Enforcement Notice.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Sep 2022 - 22:04
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Let's see the rest of the letter, but obviously you should just wait for the Enforcement Notice.

So far when confronted with the camera authorisation argument at the tribunal, Bromley Council has chosen not to right the appeal.


--------------------
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Poukong
post Thu, 29 Sep 2022 - 11:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Sep 2022 - 23:04) *
Let's see the rest of the letter, but obviously you should just wait for the Enforcement Notice.

So far when confronted with the camera authorisation argument at the tribunal, Bromley Council has chosen not to right the appeal.


Hi Cp8759 and all,

I've now gone back to mum's house and seen that the Enforcement Notice has now arrived. It is addressed to mum, who is still in hospital...

I've attached the Notice (I'm sorry I didn't post the previous letter in full, and can dig that out if needed)

Would really appreciate any advice and thoughts as I'll need to act on mum's behalf.

Thank you for the guidance so far.

P



I've added the first page here as it wasn't very clear
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cp8759
post Sun, 2 Oct 2022 - 11:28
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Just send exactly the same representation again: https://bit.ly/3CWO1L2

Obviously it's best to submit it online.


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Schofeldt
post Sun, 2 Oct 2022 - 12:54
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If you are acting on your mum's behalf, she needs to write a letter/statement of authorisation stating that you are doing so. All can be done online.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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cp8759
post Sun, 2 Oct 2022 - 13:26
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Obviously if your mum submits the representation online, that makes things much easier.


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Poukong
post Tue, 1 Nov 2022 - 14:02
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Hi All,

Thank you for everyone's ongoing help with this.

I tried to send another representation as advised but I was too late - and have now received a Charge Certificate (attached). I am not sure what this means and wondered if anyone had any further advice? My mum has been in and out of ICU and is having a stent operation shortly, so I'll need to represent her if need be.

Many thanks again all.


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cp8759
post Tue, 1 Nov 2022 - 15:57
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What do you mean you tried? Was a representation actually submitted against the Enforcement Notice? If so, when?

You cannot possibly represent your mum at the tribunal, if this goes to a contested hearing I will need to represent your mum if she is to have any chance of success. I had an Ealing case last week and the council turned up with three council officers and a barrister, we'd already had a 45 minute case management conference, the adjudicator had pre-read all the papers, and still the hearing went on for over three and a half hours, and we only dealt with a couple of preliminary points. The chances of you being able to hold your own against Ealing's barrister can be safely assessed as between zero and nil, so please get that idea out of your head.

But for now we need to determine if grounds exist to challenge the Charge Certificate (or rather the Order for Recovery that will follow), so please explain in detail what "attempts" were made to submit representations against the Enforcement Notice.


--------------------
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Schofeldt
post Tue, 1 Nov 2022 - 20:23
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http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=82420

The date of the Enforcement Notice is 22nd September. The legally deemed date of service is/was 26th September. Therefore, you had until Sunday 23rd October to submit representations. IF you did not, then the council are/were entitled to send you a Charge Certificate demanding the £195.

I would answer cp's questions immediately. And truthfully.

You have been given the best advice here and in a timely fashion.

I am sorry to hear about your mum's health. IF you submitted representations late - or not at all - or tried but failed, all I can suggest is to write to the council and explain the situation and ask if they will consider any representations late/out of time AND put the Charge Certificate on hold. BUT we need to know the whole story please including dates etc.

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 - 20:27


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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