How Litigious are NCP? Options

[bobthesod]

Person A drove Car A into an NCP Car Park on Dec 26....not a Sunday)

Followed by Car B driven by person B

On leaving person C paid for parking with person B inputing details of Car B

Person A thought B has paid for them

Arriving home Person C paid for Car B ( Car A had no payment)

Person A now recieved letter requesting for 60.00 for non payment

Letter arrived today 13 Jan( outwith the 14 days)

Can a failure letter under section 9 be sent advising they cannot chase the driver due to late delivery

Also it appears that the car park concerned is covered by TfL by laws although ne mentioned on the T+C and it is worth adding weight re this


This is an updated query in the flame pit re Dec 26 not being a BH

I am already in correspondence , but it seems to be one way!!, re the what i thought was a double overcharge and the illegally 3.00 excess (in The flame pit but i wasn't aware of the incorrect input of numbers unitl now)


I feel like doing a 6.00 refund from AE and asking for a POPLA code explaing the mis entering of the number plus alos bringing up the wrong charge

Any thoughts

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[DWMB2]

You must be on one hell of a slow connection! Anyway, an initial appeal, from the registered keeper, raising the issue of the byelaws and late sending of the notice may be a wise initial move. Something along the lines of the below adapted from Ostell:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The car park appears to be not relevant land as defined by paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, being subject to byelaws. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

Even if it were not subject to byelaws you have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. Again you therefore cannot transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc

[nosferatu1001]

As pointed out, working days do not include weekends, so a notice posted on a Friday is at best delivered Tuesday.
In addition, for the nth time, byelaws apply if it is tfl owned

As pointed out, working days do not include weekends, so a notice posted on a Friday is at best delivered Tuesday.
In addition, for the nth time, byelaws apply if it is tfl owned

[bobthesod]

DWMB and Nost

Thanks for the help and patience. The 'soft' appeal letter will be sent off once i see the RK following Covid isolation,

I expect NCP to throw it out, and therefore will request a POPLA code. Once we have that we will submit a full appeal.

A few questions does one have to attend a POPLA hearing?
and must it be the RK or a representative authorised by them?
Amd the full appeal must is be as long and drawn out as others on here or can they be sort and get to the point of each appeal bullet point.?

[DWMB2]

I expect NCP to throw it out, and therefore will request a POPLA code. Once we have that we will submit a full appeal.

You shouldn't have to request one. If they reject the keeper's appeal they should provide him with a POPLA code with the rejection.

A few questions does one have to attend a POPLA hearing?

No - it's not a 'live' hearing that one can attend. The appellant (in this case the RK) submits their appeal. Then, if NCP choose to contest it, they submit their evidence (ie their reasons why they think the appeal should not be upheld). The appellant can then respond to this evidence, pointing out errors/flaws etc. Then, the POPLA adjudicator makes a decision.

and must it be the RK or a representative authorised by them?

The appellant must be the person to whom the POPLA code is issued, so in this case, the appeal must be submitted by the RK. You can of course help them to write it, but it should be in their name.

Amd the full appeal must is be as long and drawn out as others on here or can they be sort and get to the point of each appeal bullet point.?

You shouldn't add unnecessary verbiage, but it should be thorough, and cover all applicable points - that way, if the adjudicator doesn't agree with one, they may still agree with another. They only need to find one reason to uphold the appeal. Also, the more thorough the appeal, the more work NCP would have to do to challenge it, so a thorough appeal increases the chances of NCP giving up and not bothering to contest the POPLA appeal.

[bobthesod]

DWMB
Thanks for all that. Although i have been on here a while, I did managed to get Britannia to cancel one i got , they had sent it late and also did not 'invite' me. and my Ostell did the trick

I think this one may be a bit harder and i just want to get everything straight. Learnt such a lot on here esp the width of coverage DYL have. Once we get the POPLA code i will knock up a draft appeal and put it up for possible 'fine tuning'

Again thanks to you and Nost for your help ( seems like i am saying thanks on here more than James Martin says Amazing on his Sat morning food prog)

This post has been edited by bobthesod: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 - 22:40

[DWMB2]

This one has a fairly strong prospect of success, as the byelaws and 14 day issue are both strong appeal grounds. In the meantime, it'd be wise to have a look at recent (2020 at the absolute earliest) examples of successful POPLA appeals on here to get an idea of how they're structured and what the process is. There's also a post over on the MSE Forum that makes useful reading re. POPLA.

This post has been edited by DWMB2: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 - 22:49

[bobthesod]

UPDATE

The appeal was sent off on 21 jan as in post 14 above proof of posting obtained and attached deemed to be delivered on tue 25 jan

RK then got this letter posted onm 7/2 The reverse says out of time to appeal pay by 21.feb

What is our next course of action? No POPLA code received

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/kkINBgq" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/kkINBgq"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

https://imgur.com/8IaEn8N

https://imgur.com/0KAClHc

Waiting for another pic of the rear

This post has been edited by bobthesod: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 - 00:15

[DWMB2]

It might be worth writing back to them noting their correspondence, and reminding them that you have submitted an appeal (attach a copy of your proof of posting) and that as per the BPA Code of Practice they should either accept your appeal and cancel the charge, or reject it and provide a POPLA code.

Have a look at section 31 of the BPA Code of Practice (link in my signature at the bottom), particularly 31.6 and 31.8. Draw their attention to these, and tell them you will complain to the BPA about their failure to adhere to their CoP (and make sure you do so!). If you're feeling generous, you could tell them you'll complain if you don't receive a response within ___ days.

[bobthesod]

Would a phone call be of benefit as well as they letter?

[DWMB2]

No - I'd strongly recommend you don't phone them. There's always the risk you'll inadvertently say something that harms your case (such as revealing the driver), or that the call handler will similarly try to trip you up. Do everything in writing (letter and/or email). That way they can't try to trip you up, and you have a written record of all communications if needed at a later stage. As notmeatloaf suggested in your Flame Pit post on the same topic also worth attaching a copy of said appeal to any follow up correspondence.

This post has been edited by DWMB2: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 - 00:41

[nosferatu1001]

Never ever ever ever call. Ever. Clear? 😊

[bobthesod]

Here is the reply i have drafted for the RK.

She wishes to send advise the BPA today as the deed of failure has already been done by NCP

I suggested to hang on until close on 17th



As the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned I wish to lodge a complaint of your non compliance with articles 31.6 to 31.8 inclusive of the current BPA code of conduct



Vehicle Registration xxxx xxx
Your reference is xxxxxxxxx

Timeline
26 Dec Vehicle parked at xxxxxxxxxxx underground station car park therefore this is Day 0


You , the operator of said car park, have 14 days from Dec 27 ( day 1) must have the intial letter delivered to the RK . This date being Jan 09 (POFA 2102 Section 9-1-5 refers)

Your letter ( attached) was dated 7 Jan and assuming that it was also posted that date has to reach me by the second working day excluding Sat/Sun and Bank holidays POFA 2012 9-1-6 refers
As 7 Jan was a Friday this means the letter is deemed delivered on Tuesday the 11 Jan, which it outwith the prescribed period. In fact it arrived on the 13th, and therefore you can only hold the driver responsible

On 21 Jan an appeal was sent to you ( proof of posting attached) This is deemed to have been delivered ,again on the second working day 25 Jan, well within the 28 days recommend in which to appeal. Current BPA code of practice 31.7 refers

On Sat 12 Feb I received your demand for 100.00,dated 7 Feb .Again well outside the 2 days .As there are no postmarks showing ACTUAL date of posting we have to assume that your did post it on said date and not later than it.

It would appear that you have failed to considered my appeal and offer me a POPLA reference so this matter can be pursued further and by doing so have ignore the above code of practice

I therefore demand that you either cancel this charge or forward a POPLA by return.

This will be forwarded to the BPA also as an official complaint against you, should a reply not be forthcoming by close of business on the 17th and NOT that it is being dealt with BUT either a cancellation or POPLA code

Yours

[The Rookie]

It's a mess, try again....

Very first line, it should be 'had 14 days ' (as it's now in the past) not have.

Typos and spelling everywhere.

On Sat 12 Feb I received your demand for 100.00,dated 7 Feb .Again well outside the 2 days .As there are no postmarks showing ACTUAL date of posting we have to assume that your did post it on said date and not later than it.

Where does the 2 days come into that?

[bobthesod]

Rookie

Hopefully amended without spelling and tpyo errors

How does it look now?>





As the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned I wish to lodge a complaint of your non compliance with articles 31.6 to 31.8 inclusive of the current BPA code of conduct

Vehicle Registration xxxx xxx
Your reference is xxxxxxxxx

Timeline

26 Dec Vehicle parked at xxxxxxxxxxx underground station car park therefore this is Day 0

You, the operator of said car park, had 14 days from Dec 27 ( day 1) to have the initial letter delivered to the RK . This date being Jan 09 (POFA 2102 Section 9-1-5 refers)

Your letter ( attached) was dated 7 Jan and assuming that it was also posted on that date had to be delivered me by the second working day excluding Sat/Sun and Bank holidays This being Jan 9 (POFA 2012 9-1-6 refers)
As 7 Jan was a Friday this means the letter is deemed delivered on Tuesday the 11 Jan, which is outwith the prescribed period. In fact it arrived on the 13th, and therefore you can now only hold the driver responsible.

On 21 Jan an appeal was sent to you ( proof of posting attached) This is deemed to have been delivered ,again on the second working day, 25 Jan, well within the 28 days recommended in which to appeal. Current BPA code of practice 31.7 refers

On Sat 12 Feb I received your demand for 100.00,dated 7 Feb .

It would appear that you have failed to have considered my appeal and offer me a POPLA reference so this matter can be pursued further, and by doing so have ignored the above code of practice.

I therefore demand that you either cancel this charge or forward a POPLA by return.

This will be forwarded to the BPA also as an official complaint against you, should a reply not be forthcoming by close of business on the 17th and NOT that it is being dealt with BUT either a cancellation or POPLA code

Yours

[The Rookie]

Your letter ( attached) was dated 7 Jan and assuming that it was also posted on that date had to be delivered me by the second working day excluding Sat/Sun and Bank holidays This being Jan 9 (POFA 2012 9-1-6 refers)
As 7 Jan was a Friday this means the letter is deemed delivered on Tuesday the 11 Jan, which is outwith the prescribed period. In fact it arrived on the 13th, and therefore you can now only hold the driver responsible.

So just put it would have been delivered on the 11th (when it was actually delivered then being irrelevant), no need to say the 9th and then correct it!

And it's 'driver liable'.

well within the 28 days recommended in which to appeal. Current BPA code of practice 31.7 refers

No one 'recommends' you have to appeal in 28 days, delete that one word.

It would appear that you have failed to have considered my appeal and offer me a POPLA reference so this matter can be pursued further, and by doing so have ignored the above code of practice.

I therefore demand that you either cancel this charge or forward a POPLA by return.

This will be forwarded to the BPA also as an official complaint against you, should a reply not be forthcoming by close of business on the 17th and NOT that it is being dealt with BUT either a cancellation or POPLA code

Middle sentence is redundant.

Always consider that KISS applies.

[nosferatu1001]

Yep

About 3/4 of that can be cut. Less is most definitely more.

[bobthesod]

Rookie/Nosferatu


Appeal further trimmed. Does this pass muster?







As the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned I wish to lodge a complaint of your non compliance with articles 31.6 to 31.8 inclusive of the current BPA code of conduct

Vehicle Registration xxxx xxx
Your reference is xxxxxxxxx

Timeline

26 Dec Vehicle parked at xxxxxxxxxxx underground station car park

You, the operator of said car park, had 14 days from Dec 27 ( day 1) to have the initial letter delivered to the RK . This date being Jan 09 (POFA 2102 Section 9-1-5 refers)

Your letter dated 7 Jan had to be delivered me by the second working day This being Jan 9 (POFA 2012 9-1-6 refers)

As 7 Jan was a Friday this means the letter is deemed delivered on Tuesday the 11 Jan, which is outwith the period in which the liability can be transferred to me the RK

Jan 21 i posted an appeal Proof of posting and copy of appeal attached this being deemed delivered to you on Jan 25th

On Sat 12 Feb I received your demand for 100.00,dated 7 Feb .

You have failed to have considered my appeal and offer me a POPLA reference.

I therefore demand that you either cancel this charge or forward a POPLA by return.

If i do not receive a reply by close of business on the !7th of this month. This will be escalated to BPA without further delay

Yours

[The Rookie]

It’s a bit tiring correcting basic English, more haste-less speed and try again please. Read it and you should spot most the issues.

You don’t use an abbreviation such as RK unless you’ve ex planned it already

Example ‘had to be delivered to me’ is just wrong, you’d already covered when, so ‘is deemed to have been delivered on DATE).

[bobthesod]

Thanks for the 'hints' In my defence i have not had to write letters of this nature for many a year as a result i am on a very sharp learning curve, like i was back in the 2nd yr at junior school! Here is the revised effort for your critique(keeping fingers crossed
)



As the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned I wish to lodge a complaint of your non compliance with articles 31.6 to 31.8 inclusive of the current BPA code of conduct

Vehicle Registration xxxx xxx
Your reference is xxxxxxxxx

Timeline

26 Dec Vehicle parked at xxxxxxxxxxx underground station car park

You, the operator had 14 days from Dec 27 ( day 1) to deliver the initial letter to the registered keeper. This being no later than Jan 9th (POFA 2102 Schedule 4 9-1-5 refers)

Your letter is dated 7 Jan and is expected to delivered by the second working day excluding Sat/Sun and Bank holidays (POFA 4 9-1-6)
As 7 Jan was a Friday this means the letter is presumed delivered on Tuesday the 11 Jan, which is outwith the period in which the liabity can be transferred to me the registered keeper
On Jan 21 i posted an appeal, (Proof of posting and a copy of the appeal is attached attached) this being presumed delivered to you on Jan 25th

On Sat 12 Feb I received your demand for 100.00, .

You have failed to have considered my appeal and offer me a POPLA reference.

I therefore demand that you either cancel this charge or forward a POPLA by return.

If i do not receive a reply by close of business on the !7th of this month. This will be escalated to BPA without further delay

Yours

[nosferatu1001]

No

Short one sentence para. Awful to read. Summarise, withiut trying all the pseudo legalise that you don't understand. Plain English.