How Litigious are NCP? |
How Litigious are NCP? |
Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 16:13
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Person A drove Car A into an NCP Car Park on Dec 26....not a Sunday)
Followed by Car B driven by person B On leaving person C paid for parking with person B inputing details of Car B Person A thought B has paid for them Arriving home Person C paid for Car B ( Car A had no payment) Person A now recieved letter requesting for 60.00 for non payment Letter arrived today 13 Jan( outwith the 14 days) Can a failure letter under section 9 be sent advising they cannot chase the driver due to late delivery Also it appears that the car park concerned is covered by TfL by laws although ne mentioned on the T+C and it is worth adding weight re this This is an updated query in the flame pit re Dec 26 not being a BH I am already in correspondence , but it seems to be one way!!, re the what i thought was a double overcharge and the illegally 3.00 excess (in The flame pit but i wasn't aware of the incorrect input of numbers unitl now) I feel like doing a 6.00 refund from AE and asking for a POPLA code explaing the mis entering of the number plus alos bringing up the wrong charge Any thoughts |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 16:13
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 16:23
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,363 Joined: 9 Apr 2021 Member No.: 112,205 |
Person A drove Car A into an NCP Car Park on Dec 26....not a Sunday) Unless this was 2020, then December 26th was a Sunday... The late delivery does offer a potential avenue of appeal (But, how easy that route is depends on when the letter was issued, what date was that?). When you say you are in correspondence, have you appealed? If so, have they responded? Let's see the notice they sent. If you intend to use the POFA argument that the notice was delivered late, you'd be wise to edit your post so that you do not reveal a link between the person who drove the car, and the keeper, who is the person who received the notice. Edit: noticed your point around byelaws. If they are in place, this might be your strongest route of appeal (but throwing other valid reasons in too of course) This post has been edited by DWMB2: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 16:28 -------------------- Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice | International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 17:08
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
DWMB
Dec 26 2021 was a sunday.. but not a bh as precribed under a Act of Parliament ( see the thread in the flame pit) I thought that the letter had to arrive within 14 days of the 'offence' Day 0 being the offence Dec 26) I have asked the recipient to keep the envelope and advise the date on the letter Ostell is it worth taking this t POPLA ( possible out of time letter, wrong and illegal charge for parking, payment made incorrectly.and non compliant land The Tfl Reply to a FOI question just says The answer to your first question is none. This is because NCP do not carry out enforcement under the Railway Bylaws. Currently our Terms and Conditions and enforcement are based upon contract law and as such there is no requirement for TfL to take the driver to court in pursuance of unpaid Penalty charge Notices (PCNS). However TfL replies are a bit muddy. Anyone know if whilst under Contract Law they are still subject tp TfL bylaws?would like to get all the ducks in a row |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 17:23
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,363 Joined: 9 Apr 2021 Member No.: 112,205 |
I thought that the letter had to arrive within 14 days of the 'offence' Day 0 being the offence Dec 26) It does have to be received within 14 days of the parking incident (edit - for keeper liability). The reason I asked about the issued date, is that a letter sent by first class post is presumed delivered 2 working days later unless the contrary is proven (which isn't always easy to prove) - what was the issue date of the notice? It should be printed on the letter somewhere - if it isn't that is another defect that can be used to your favour. QUOTE This is because NCP do not carry out enforcement under the Railway Bylaws Indeed, there's no money to be made from enforcing byelaws after all, much more profitable to pursue contractual charges. QUOTE Anyone know if whilst under Contract Law they are still subject tp TfL bylaws? Whilst they can pursue contractual charges against the driver, they cannot use POFA to transfer liability to the keeper, as the land is not 'relevant land' due to being subject to byelaws. It'll be a lot easier to offer you specific advice if we can see the notice they sent. As for if it's worth taking to POPLA, the short answer is yes, definitely. But we need to know if you've appealed, and if so, have they issued you a POPLA code? This post has been edited by DWMB2: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 18:18 -------------------- Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice | International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 18:10
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Notice is dated the 7 Jan still waiting to see the envelope
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 18:11
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
I thought that the letter had to arrive within 14 days of the 'offence' Day 0 being the offence Dec 26) To meet the requirements of PoFA to hold the keeper liable, yes, in order for the driver to be liable, no not at all. The notice is an invoice, for the sum mentioned on the signage that they will claim the driver agreed to pay by parking there. Apart from the 6 year statute of limitations, there is no set time limit of when someone can get an invoice and be liable for it. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 22:18
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
7th is a Friday so not delivered until Tuesday. Pretty sure that's beyond 14 days. Work it out OP.
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 22:23
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
As the OP is already in correspondence I’m guessing the driver ID has been revealed, in which case the requirements for them to use PoFA are a nullity.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 22:26
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,363 Joined: 9 Apr 2021 Member No.: 112,205 |
As the OP is already in correspondence I’m guessing the driver ID has been revealed, in which case the requirements for them to use PoFA are a nullity. That is the worry - bobthesod, have you revealed who was driving in your conversations with NCP so far? -------------------- Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice | International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice |
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Thu, 13 Jan 2022 - 22:30
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
I've also got no idea why they're wittering on about illegal £3 charges.
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 06:43
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
A little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge. The OP has enough knowledge to confuse himself and hinder his actions more than no knowledge would.
This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 06:44 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 10:43
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Gents lets start again
The notice of charges states Sundays 3.00.. Bank Holidays 6.00 Sun 26 Dec is not a Bank holiday therefore that charge is wrong and i am claiming for a incoorectly charge of 3.00 I was writing to NCP as the payer of a double payment there has been no indication of who was the RK/Driver/ Dogs name OK? NOW the non payment letter The parking took place on 26 Dec The letter was dated 7 Jan 2022 It arrived at the address yesterday 13 Jan 2022 Before i get the RK to send in an appeal i want to get everything in order.. I agree i am not as knowledgeable as some on here that is why i amasking to see if what i do know is correct AND am willing to be corrected and guided First of all the letter when i get it from the RK does not 'invite' them to give the drivers name.. So that is a fail under POFA Yes? As iunderstand it the letter must arrive by the 14th day following the parking that being Day 0 ,so day 1i s Dec 27 and day 14 is Jan 9 so by that reckoning it is outside the 14 days However another part of POFA says that it is deemed to be delivered two working days after posting There is no posting date on the envelope unless someone on here can decipher a code printed on the front so if it were dated/posted on the 7 Jan which is a Friday it is deemed to have been delivered on the 11 Jan ( as Sat sun BH are excluded...have i read that correct?) Time of entrance and exit are shown It is a Tfl Tube car park so would the be non relevant land? In an FOI reply TfL say it is covered by contract law and they do not pursue trespass There is no mention of by laws on the NCP notice Neither the RK nor I have contacted NCP on the PCN and will not do so until i get advice on here Would one of Ostell's letters quoting POFA failures be enough to nip it in the bud or get a win a POPLA? As an aside the only connection between this and the double payment is that both drivers thought the other had paid I as a third party and due t o a glitch either in the AE or NCP system did not show the initial payment and entered the same Reg twice Iam not sure if this would bear weight at POPLA though |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 11:11
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Would one of Ostell's letters quoting POFA failures be enough to nip it in the bud or get a win a POPLA? Probably - can we see a redacted scan of the notice? -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 11:17
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 2 Dec 2020 Member No.: 110,817 |
on the 'double payment' where 2 people attempted to pay for 3 cars, but erroneously paid for 1 car and 1 car twice and therefore omitted a car - the overpayment was a 'major reg miskey' So if you admit that, stating that the second payment had the wrong reg entered (as evidenced by double payment for another car) they should drop the fee to an admin fee of £20 or £25.
If I understood correctly, they have said that Sun 26th was a 'bank holiday', unless their signs were somehow specific and clear on that, it is not a bank holiday (official lists of English/Wels/Scottish/NI bank holidays are available on-line I believe). That's if you don't believe you can get traction on the pofa issues - the reduction is usually offered as a compromise, you then may have to take it or leave it (with no keeping the reduction if you subsequently lose an appeal). |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 12:13
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
D Team
this is a copy and paste form their website on charges at the station Monday 24Hr Tuesday 24Hr Wednesday 24Hr Thursday 24Hr Friday 24Hr Saturday 24Hr Sunday 24Hr Pay on the day Mon - fri per day £6.00 Saturday £6.00 Sunday £3.00 Bank holiday £6.00 Motorcycle per day £2.00 Weekly season ticket £28.80 you will note that there are different rates for a Sunday and a Bank Holiday just to clarify the 'major miskey' When the payment was made at the car park (i did not enter the reg, ) the machine did not print out a receipt, AE are pretty quick in getting payments onto my phone app. so when i got home i checked and nothing was showing. Having been on here for a while i have a fair idea on how the PPC work. Before i did a second payment , assuming as no receipt printed it didnot go through i rang AE and asked them to check if a payment for 6.00 had gone through.. this was 4 hrs later. Their records did not show a payment. So in order not to be sent a PCN i paid on line . Next day both payments showed up. I then lwrote to them asking for a refund of 6.00. it was then i saw that the payment should have been 3.. as it is considered a normal Sunday. since then they have been glacial in their responses. asking vfor copies of receipts... havent got one,. scans of my AE account....i have on line only..although i did send them a copy and paste. Up to yesterday when the PCN arrived i was unaware of the mix up beteween the driver and what reg was put in. This correspondence is entirely separate form the PCN which has not yet been replied to. I see that some posters are critcal of me chasing the 3.00..it is more a matter of principal and law rather than the amunt..it could have bee 300.00 pounds or 30p they have wrongly charged me The PCN I am hoping to get the actual PCN today to put up but from what i can gather it is compliant in dates but misses the word 'invite' when mentioning the driver Also it appears to be out of time and would like confirmation of my assumptions in my earlier post plus is it worth adding that although the car park is run under contract law TfL by laws still apply although not mentioned on the NCP T+C at the car park, and as such it is still considered non relevant land I am willing to take this to POPLA on behalf of the RK but will get them to write the initial appeal. Unlike most PPC i want to get the wording correct and watertight. I might add that some of this is guesswork on my part and until i get both of them together i will get the full story Covid has me stuck until monday... This post has been edited by bobthesod: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 13:57 |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 14:54
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
So to be clear, the £3 is not the concern of the parking charge notice, and is a separate matter for yiu to take to court or not, your choice.
I'd entirely drop this, as it doesn't help what's actually required here. Simplify it down So, 1) if there are byelaws, then the land isn't relevant land. This means the keeper isn't liable 2) I told you it was more than 14 days, so again the keeper isn't liable, plus any other flaws I'd suggest, heavily, you make this far more concise. You ramble, and it's hard to deal with |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 17:36
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Nost
How brief do you want it? some people on here want chapter and verse, others say not enough info lol. OK we have to scrub the lack of invite as the letter does quote 'We invite you......'Which leaves the out of time posting. There is only, a he said, she said here on when it was received, but am i correct that if the posting date and date on notice is the same viz 7 Jan then the second working day after posting would be Tues 11 Jan which is day 16 POFA states working days do not include Sat,Sun or BH The latest date for arriving should be 9 Jan, 14 days from 27 Dec being day 1, and amend Ostell's letter to cover the part of POFA 2012~ |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 17:52
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,363 Joined: 9 Apr 2021 Member No.: 112,205 |
Can we please see the notice? We're 18 posts in and still haven't got sight of the notice. It would have answered some of the questions we've asked, and may well answer some future ones.
When it was actually delivered is pragmatically neither here nor there - as you correctly note if it was issued on 7th then it is presumed delivered on 11th, which is day 16, i.e. too late to hold the keeper liable. -------------------- Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice | International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 18:29
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
DWMB
It has just arrived. getting the post it notes ready as we speak |
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Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 20:21
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 277 Joined: 29 Aug 2017 Member No.: 93,755 |
Apologies for delay pictures have been taken and are taking an age to load onto imgur 50 mins a least!!i
I have tried loading ( drag and drop) from both the camera file ad also copied and pasted the images to desktop as well At last, i was losing the will to live!! https://imgur.com/a/NNSsrG8 https://imgur.com/7yxOS0m https://imgur.com/qVavtGa This post has been edited by bobthesod: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 20:32 |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 10:40 |