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PCN 52 in Princes Street
PCNappeal8
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 09:10
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Hi.

Hope someone can help me.

I received a PCN 52 for going through the Bank junction on the 5th.

I was following my nose down to London Bridge going home and didn't see any signs forbidding traffic.
As you can see from the photo, there were plenty of other non-bus vehicles, who must also have received PCNs.
Which does make me think that the signage still isn't doing its job.

I've searched through a lot of similar scenarios on this site.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t120024.html looks to be the closest.

I haven't been back to check where and what the signs are that I missed (bit nervous to now TBH).

Thanks!

Docs and photo here: https://og789.imgbb.com

Video here: https://youtu.be/Bu64bBxORBU

Here's a pic directly uploaded on this site:
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post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 09:10
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numb15
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 11:03
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There is indeed a restriction I was never aware of. The warning sign is on the junction of Princes and Lothbury (next to the Bank of China) which is visible on Google maps.
The sign does only include the times, and an image of a bus and a bike (but no text saying no cars' which seems a little cheeky?).
The restrictions are explained here: https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/services/tr...-Access-Map.pdf

This post has been edited by numb15: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 11:03
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numb15
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 11:18
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Here is a google maps image of the signs at the entrance of Princes Street from Lothbury (I presume that's the route you took and that the signs are still in the same legible condition today).
One sign on either side of the road. You may have a case if you can claim (and prove) that the signs were obstructed from your view by a tall vehicle (or other object). Or, people wiser than me on here, can have a look at the adequacy of the sign size/text, and the wording in the PCN itself.
Good luck, but I can't see any immediate get-out-of-jail card for you at first glance, sorry.
https://ibb.co/DK1nCCv
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PCNappeal8
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 19:55
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Thanks.

So the conclusion appears to be that I need to pay the fine.

That’s a shame. I’ve never come across this type of signage in 35 years of driving.
And if I’m honest, the whole thing smacks of borderline entrapment.

I appreciate that if you’re going through the junction regularly and you keep up with local news it wouldn’t be a surprise.

But I was surrounded by cars and vans so they must be making an absolute killing on a daily basis.

It just feels dishonest to me. Where is the no entry sign?

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 20:33
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no you do not have to pay, just yet. The sign is wrong. I am out of the country ATM but if no one else steps in I will do so next week when I return


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cp8759
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 21:14
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QUOTE (numb15 @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 12:18) *
Good luck, but I can't see any immediate get-out-of-jail card for you at first glance, sorry.

With all due respect, WTF are you on about? We've been consistently getting PCNs cancelled at this location for many, many months. In fact CoL doesn't even bother fighting these any more and they've been cancelling immediately at the first stage of challenge, possibly because they realise it's pointless wasting the £40 tribunal fee on hopeless cases.

PCNappeal8, send this:

----------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

The alleged contravention did not occur, on the basis that the signage in Princes Street does not comply with the requirements of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, as found by the London Tribunals in Salih Dogan v City of London (case reference 2180198194). While each case is decided on its merits, the signage in issue is the same, and there is no reason to believe the tribunal would reach a different conclusion in this instance. In particular the tribunal ruled that:

"In this appeal the local authority argues that the legend Bus Gate is not mandatory because there is no link from the Route for Bus and Cycle Only sign in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. The case summary does not refer to Schedule 9 Part 5 para 1 TSRGD 2016 which provides that the information etc. of a description in column 2 of an item in the sign table in Part 6 “must” be conveyed by a road marking shown in column 3. The legend bus gate is one of the items in column 3 of part 6 of Schedule 9.

Item 15 of the sign table in part 6 contains the description ” Road or part of a road with access permitted only for buses and other vehicles when so indicated by any of the signs at items 10, 33 to 35 and 37 to 40 in the sign table in Part 2 of Schedule 3”.

The restricted access of that type in the present case is indicated by a (permitted variant of) a sign to Diagram 953 shown in the Schedule 3 Part 2 sign table at item 33.
I find that the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 state that the bus gate legend is mandatory.
...
I am satisfied that the bus gate requirement is mandatory therefore I must allow this appeal.
"

In light of this it would be wholly unreasonable for you to pursue enforcement any further.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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PCNappeal8
post Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 14:55
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Thanks cp8759.

I've pasted that wording in and sent the appeal.

Fingers crossed.

Appreciate the help.
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numb15
post Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 12:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (numb15 @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 12:18) *
Good luck, but I can't see any immediate get-out-of-jail card for you at first glance, sorry.

With all due respect, WTF are you on about? We've been consistently getting PCNs cancelled at this location for many, many months. In fact CoL doesn't even bother fighting these any more and they've been cancelling immediately at the first stage of challenge, possibly because they realise it's pointless wasting the £40 tribunal fee on hopeless cases.


Ok fair enough, but it wasn't easy to find previous threads on this in this forum, did various searches for it.
I'm surprised City of London don't change the signs, it's an obvious loophole.
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cp8759
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 14:55
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QUOTE (numb15 @ Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 13:36) *
I'm surprised City of London don't change the signs, it's an obvious loophole.

So am I, I'm sure they'll get round to it at some point.


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PCNappeal8
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 13:38
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CP8759, you’re a star.

Cancelled today.
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