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PCN Code 40 Parking in Disabled Space w/o Clock
RedDeath614
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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Hi all, we got a PCN yesterday for parking in a disabled space, without displaying the clock. Badge was displayed correctly. I came back to car (mum was still in shop) in the interim to find warden issuing a ticket. He then pointed to a sign which said there was a 3 hour time limit for disabled badges in the bay and without a clock, how would anyone know what time we had arrived? He also said I was not the badge owner so refused to discuss anything with me, which was weird. I said we came into town at 6.15pm, his ticket was issued around 6.45pm and we had driven home by 7pm. We have shop receipts to verify the times of our 2x purchases between 6.30-6.50pm but will this help or not? I was calling my mum but she's also hard of hearing so she didn't pick up and the guy had the cheek to allege I was misusing the badge as he could see no disabled person present. I did tell him we would not be paying the ticket and he dismissively said we could contest it.

I'm baffled to see a warden beyond 6pm in the city, however they must be wandering around until midnight.
I'd also say the majority of bays are no longer time limited for blue badge holders, so there is a habit where neither of us check this, but we will of course always use the clock now.

Is there any way to fight it? Can we say we displayed the clock but it had fallen off the dashboard?

Pics of ticket are attached, I can take and upload ones of the street and where we were parked if needed too.


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post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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RedDeath614
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:00
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 10:26) *
Telephone hearing.
Gives you chance to politely but firmly refer adjudicator to TRO and lack of requirement for a time disc.
Have the relevant page/section highlighted so you can easily point adjudicator towards it.

IMO it is worth a quick note to TPT now.

Dear Sirs
Rf PCN/hearing numbers ????
I have received and checked the evidence pack supplied by the council.
May I comment on and bring to the attention of the adjudicator the following.
Council rely on guidance within the Blue Badge booklet to enforce the need for a time clock to be displayed.
They have not offered any supporting legislation.
Council TRO, Page??? Section ??? does not reflect this stance and specifically only requires the Blue Badge to be displayed.
Without the requirement for a time clock to be displayed within the TRO, there can be no contravention.
Given this, I ask that the adjudicator agrees that I displayed all that was needed and as such was parked lawfully.
Hugs and Kisses


Thanks very much all, have done as DD suggests. Will wait to see what happens & keep you posted on this hotly contested case happy.gif

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been poorly

This post has been edited by RedDeath614: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:01
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DancingDad
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:14
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Now it is wait and see.
Is it a telephone hearing or on papers ?
If telephone, be prepared.
Have your papers ordered. Highlight important parts.
Have a summary list with bullet points with page number reference to where this point is mentioned.
Post it notes make good page markers and you can add bullet points/notes to them.
You do not want to be hanging on the phone saying "uhm, it's here somewhere, gimme a minute"
Chill, relax, don't panic and if needs be, open your mouth, polite but firm.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:57
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Without the requirement for a time clock to be displayed within the TRO, there can be no contravention.
Given this, I ask that the adjudicator agrees that I displayed all that was needed and as such was parked lawfully.


Is what worries me. No sense of contrition or any apology.

Notwithstanding my stance on the legal point, you are at adjudication. May I suggest you try a more conciliatory approach:

I parked and I forgot to display my BB, something which I always do as detailed in my BB booklet. This was my mistake.

In normal circumstances I would have paid the penalty, however, as this was a genuine mistake I thought that I would make representations. In their responses the council referred me to the underlying legal support to the requirement to display a clock which I now know is not based on universal legislation or the booklet but the wording of each council's traffic orders. As this was drawn to my attention I thought I would investigate.

What I found convinces me that although a time-limited restriction is stated on the traffic sign the applicable order does not give legislative support to this and therefore my appeal is based on this point........

Just try putting yourself in the adj's shoes. Which approach would be the more likely to tip any balance with you, yours or the above?

Let me disabuse you of any notion that hearings are absolutely black and white, they are not. So how do you want to come across, barrack-room sm**t a**e or genuine driver who made a mistake?

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cp8759
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:33
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:57) *
Without the requirement for a time clock to be displayed within the TRO, there can be no contravention.
Given this, I ask that the adjudicator agrees that I displayed all that was needed and as such was parked lawfully.


Is what worries me. No sense of contrition or any apology.

Contrition or apology for what? The OP did nothing wrong.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 15:33
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While I take HCA's point, the note was not the appeal, it is simply a fast response to the evidence pack supplied by the council.
An evidence pack with a summary that relies solely on BB booklet guidance and ignores its own TRO.
I see no point it repeating what may have already been said or trying to sweeten the pill if it hasn't, it is simply a note that points out the glaring error in the council's position.

Does not harm at the hearing when an adjudicator asks what happens to say, "I parked and displayed my Blue Badge but forgot the time clock/didn't realise I needed one …" or to throw in words like "I realise that I am partially responsible for my misfortune" or to apologise.
But it changes not a jot that the council have no lawful standing to serve let alone enforce this PCN and have presented nothing that suggests there is lawful standing.

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RedDeath614
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:36
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:14) *
Now it is wait and see.
Is it a telephone hearing or on papers ?
If telephone, be prepared.
Have your papers ordered. Highlight important parts.
Have a summary list with bullet points with page number reference to where this point is mentioned.
Post it notes make good page markers and you can add bullet points/notes to them.
You do not want to be hanging on the phone saying "uhm, it's here somewhere, gimme a minute"
Chill, relax, don't panic and if needs be, open your mouth, polite but firm.


Thanks again all smile.gif

It should be a telephone hearing. I've requested one anyway. The adjudicator could decide they don't need one & make the decision without it.

Yes I'll be prepared when I get a date for the hearing - have been to civil court before so stuck lots of post-its onto my papers for easy reference.

Agree the Council are ignoring their own TRO. I don't believe they know what they're doing. They haven't even uploaded the TRO from 2006, just the updated one for bus lanes in the next street. The updated one makes no reference to any blue badge parking at all. Then their renewed offer at this late stage to pay £35.00. It's all a bit weird & I think they're not confident but sticking to their guns anyway.

In addition, this is the first and only time we have ever had a ticket, and also we were only there for under 45 mins & have supplied evidence. I will state the case clearly when I get the chance to.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 12:24
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OP, where is the TRO which they've supplied?

I can see your references to the summary and your take on the order.

But where is it?

Irrespectve of the construction which an adj might place on its wording, they must have some wording to go on. For this purpose it is irrelevant what they provided before, where is the TRO in their evidence?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 12:46
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DancingDad
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 13:18
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Good question.
I understood that they had included the TRO that we had already seen and which doesn't require the time clock.
Inference now is that they have included totally the wrong TRO.

Could you confirm pls.

If the wrong TRO makes the note suggested before a little premature.

Always bear in mind with TPT that they accept a TRO not in physical evidence as long as it is in the TRO library.
There should be a reference to it within the evidence.
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 14:18
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 13:18) *
Good question.
I understood that they had included the TRO that we had already seen and which doesn't require the time clock.
Inference now is that they have included totally the wrong TRO.

Could you confirm pls.

If the wrong TRO makes the note suggested before a little premature.

Always bear in mind with TPT that they accept a TRO not in physical evidence as long as it is in the TRO library.
There should be a reference to it within the evidence.

See post 10.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:25
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 14:18) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 13:18) *
Good question.
I understood that they had included the TRO that we had already seen and which doesn't require the time clock.
Inference now is that they have included totally the wrong TRO.

Could you confirm pls.

If the wrong TRO makes the note suggested before a little premature.

Always bear in mind with TPT that they accept a TRO not in physical evidence as long as it is in the TRO library.
There should be a reference to it within the evidence.

See post 10.


You misunderstand.
Post ten refers to the TRO we think applies and I thought was within the evidence pack.
But this comment "They haven't even uploaded the TRO from 2006, just the updated one for bus lanes in the next street." makes me wonder what TRO the council is reliant upon ????
If totally the wrong one then case over, no TRO, they cannot substantiate even the need for a BB let alone a time clock.

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